188: Navigating L&D Interviews: What Hiring Managers Are Asking Right Now

Chelsea Avirett (00:01.87)

Welcome, welcome. We are going to give you a few minutes to trickle in and feel free to throw in the chat where you're coming from. Nice and easy and it's lovely to hear all the different places that we're in. I'm in Maine and Holly you're down, you're down.

Yes, I'm in Wilmington, North Carolina.

we got a Boston. That's close.

Maryland? Portland, Oregon. I'm close to the other Portland, which gets confusing.

You know what's funny is in North Carolina we have a Jacksonville. When I first moved here I was like, I'm like that's in Florida. And there's a Jacksonville I learned recently there's a Jacksonville, Georgia.

Chelsea Avirett (00:47.852)

Is it really? Yeah, I should know about that. In high school I had to memorize all of the counties. Yeah, represented them in the legislature or something bizarre like that.

And it's like.

Chelsea Avirett (01:01.39)

That's the Columbus is two hours south. That's where my family is from. Okay, we got distracted. We have somebody from. Yeah, we did. I know and a lot of people from the west coast, you guys are, you guys still have sunshine. Although technically we have sunshine, it just won't be for long. Wonderful. All right, my cats are scrabbling around like crazy.

We did. Look at all these people.

Holly Owens (01:27.731)

You

goodness, Louisiana. have family in Louisiana. That's a nice place to visit.

Chelsea Avirett (01:39.598)

Let's see.

Lewis, New York City.

late. Bunch of California

It was really cool. It's only 3 p.m. there, so afternoon time for them.

I know, whereas we're looking at dinner here. Yeah. All right. So we are going to give people a little more time. We've got about 40 people who have showed up, but we have over 300 people registered. So I know some of them are going to watch the recording, but I want to make sure people have a chance to join. So Houston. Amy, not Emu. I just signed up for my yoga class, my last name is Averett.

Chelsea Avirett (02:20.576)

auto corrected to variety. So now I'm Chelsea variety for yoga. That's too fun to change.

my god.

Chelsea Avirett (02:33.534)

Man Mancato or Mancada. I'm not good with pronunciation, but I like that name in Minnesota. Town names are so cool. Actually, there just was an article in my paper about why Maine has so many town names. We have like random names like Athens and Rome and then all cities. And then we have a of back to the landers who are hippies. We have the Liberty Union and so forth. Specifically, is

That's cool.

So yeah, bunch of Washington people.

Alright, when it gets up to 50, I think we'll start unless it slows down and doesn't go anywhere.

Sounds good. I'll open the door for my puppy so he can go in and out.

Chelsea Avirett (03:18.476)

yes, yes, are. I'm sure the cats will make an appearance and hopefully not chew my cords.

Yeah, he does that too.

a couple of people know each other.

That's That's cool.

Manquito, manquito, I like that. Actually, you the article I read didn't talk about any Native American names and we have a ton of Native American names. I wonder why. Illinois, Alabama.

Chelsea Avirett (03:52.449)

Alright.

So I think this is a good time to get started. So folks, thank you so much for joining us, whether it's your afternoon or whether or not you're nibbling on dinner while you listen to us. We appreciate your attendance. And I also really appreciate Holly for joining us. I'm very much looking forward to this conversation. If you follow either of us, you know we often get together and have these little conversations, but usually Holly's interviewing me.

And she always does something during these conversations. And I'm like, I want to know more. I want to know more. So this is the I want to know more. And we're going to let Holly really take the stage here and share everything that she knows about interviewing and learning and development. And this is something that she's done over the course of her career, but it's also something that she's done recently. So she's got some really great insights into what's going on right now, not just in learning and development overall, because of course she

runs a great podcast and so forth and keeps up with the industry, but really what's going on in the interview process specifically. So, I didn't introduce myself. If you don't know me, I am Chelsea Avirett and I'm the founder of Skips Job Board. And what I do is share jobs that are in what I call education adjacent fields or ed adjacent fields. So education, instructional design, learning and development, anything that's really looking for

the skill set that we have of training or teaching other people. And Holly is going to introduce herself and then we're going to get started with some questions. The way we'll run this session is I'll ask some questions and if you guys want to hear any follow up as Holly is answering the questions, feel free to throw it in the chat. I'll be monitoring the chat and then we'll pull those questions up and then we'll also have some time for.

Chelsea Avirett (05:51.52)

some questions from you guys at the end of the session as well. So we're going keep it pretty fluid, a conversation between Holly and me and also between you guys in the chat and all of us. let's see Holly, go ahead.

Hi everyone. I appreciate you joining, especially those on the East Coast who have dinner time. Thank you so much for coming on and Chelsea for inviting me on. I really think this particular webinar lends itself to being very discussion-focused, active-focused on the audience because we want you to be able to ask questions that have been in your head or things you've experienced recently, like top of mind for you.

For those of you who don't know me, my name is Holly Owens. I am currently a freelance instructional designer. I have a couple different contracts that I've been working on, but I started my career out as a high school teacher, which I know there are some of you in the audience who are looking to be former teachers like myself. I did it before it was the cool thing to do back in 2011. And then I moved into higher education, instructional design, instructional technology.

which eventually evolved into all instructional design. Then I hopped into some corporate, went to Amazon. And then I most recently I did, which is not really super related, but it is related. did some marketing, director of growth marketing at Yellowdig, which is an ed tech company. So every part of the sector you can think of, I've probably been a part of, or I just, you know, I've worked somewhere closely with someone who's a part of every sector and learning and development.

And I was really excited when Chelsea asked me to come and answer some of the poignant questions that you have and maybe alleviate, maybe be a little bit of a therapist and alleviate some of the stress or the anxiety that goes along with this whole application process when it comes to, especially for those transitioning into different careers. So I'm really excited to jump into all that.

Chelsea Avirett (07:55.63)

Cool, before we ask questions, do you wanna talk a little bit about, you have a lot of resources for people and do you wanna share some of those? And I've got some links as we.

Yeah, so I've been I've been doing some thinking about like how one of the things I love to do is take the very complex and break it down into simple pieces. And the one that Chelsea shared is the unlock your L &D career. I took I used to have this very long list of resources that was all about, you know, where to start blogs to follow podcasts, books. And I took it and I just organized it into this nice little

you know, like it looks kind of like a PowerPoint presentation that you can go through and you can click on what's pertinent to you or where you're at in the stage of the process. It's $5. I'm not here to like make millions. I'm just trying to make some passive income. Cause what Chelsea and I really do is we give back. There's also, so that one's $5 and you get updates for life. So I go in every couple of weeks, I update it, you'll get a notification that I added something to the list. And that

You know, you get access for life. mean, $5. Because $5 is going to be what? $15 in the next 10 years, probably. So grab that. There's another one, too. There's a free one specifically designed because I love teachers so much. It's the top five instructional design interview questions. And then this came from a presentation I did way back with iSpring Solutions. And also, I've done a couple of different ones that's free.

and it just talks you through, and this is really important for this session, different types of... Muckuppy is pushing his bed. Hold on one second. He has made a complete mess. If I showed you what he has done in the past five minutes, there's fluff everywhere.

Chelsea Avirett (09:52.27)

That sounds about right. Yeah.

So this particular resource, was like, these are questions that teachers ask me often or questions that I've encountered along the way. I'm like, I just need to put this in the one thing that people can just download. Again, it's free. I update it regularly. And then there's one more, the interview pocket guide. This is something where it's not just for necessarily L &D. It's for any types of interview you're going into. Because I know some of us

aren't necessarily going into learning development roles. You might be going into some of these ad-adjacent things that Chelsea talked to the marketing communications, product management, ed tech, all that stuff. So these are just questions that I see. I see a lot of like, these are the questions you might get asked, but I don't see these are the questions you should ask. So that particular resource has questions you will probably be asked at the different stages, which include like the initial interview, the group interview.

So many different rounds. And then questions you should be asking during the process because, you know, when you're interviewing, it's not just about the company. It's not just about getting the job. It's also figuring out if this is somewhere where you want to be. So questions for you to ask that I think are important at every stage of the interview process. Such good stuff.

I love it. I'm going to do more too. I'm writing a book. I'm definitely 100 % going to have a book out by the beginning of January is my goal. It's like, it's the title so far, what I have is it's not just one thing like landing a role in learning development, like the no BS guide, because there's a lot of noise out there. And I just want to, I'm going to sift through all that and just give you a guide, which I'm going to just put up as a PDF and then self-publish later on so that people can access it.

Holly Owens (11:47.778)

But these are really, these are guys that have helped me.

Excellent and Beth. I'm going to throw some of the resources into the chat afterwards and and one I want to follow up on the initial resource that Holly was talking about and actually I'll share that one on the screen. The resource guide. Yeah, this one it's highly worth your $5. This is one that I use regularly when I have.

I'm doing a webinar or just somebody asks me about something. I'm like, I know where to find that information. Holly's already done it. So this is a really great way to just see what the industry looks like and what all of these resources are, because there are a lot of people who share free resources. There are a lot of great books. There are a lot of great webinars and so forth. And Holly knows all of them. So I highly recommend.

It's really difficult for us as we're trying to prepare for these interviews or the applications to figure out like, so many tabs open, too many bookmarks, like this, it has it, it's all there for you.

Indeed, and then I don't actually have the I don't have the pocket guide. OK, OK, yeah. So if you can share that one and then I need to figure out how I have these lovely little pop outs, but I don't actually have the links, so I'll grab them while you're talking later. So Beth, they will they will be popping into the chat as we have a moment.

Holly Owens (12:59.992)

can share that one.

Holly Owens (13:20.366)

cool though.

I'm at you. We're all humans. there's literally my puppy is my child. He's just, he's a mess right now. This is like his, I don't know if anybody else experienced this. You've probably experienced this with your cats. They have like a witching hour where they just like all of them zoom or they go crazy and they tear stuff up. That's what he's doing right now.

Thank you much.

Chelsea Avirett (13:51.554)

What's his name?

Oh, that's Freddie. is his name. Excellent.

Alright, so let's get started with some questions. And as I said earlier, you guys are welcome to throw in the chat follow up questions that you have and will just start to build a conversation. So the first question I wanted to ask Holly was really a big picture question because as she talked about earlier, she has nearly 20 years of experience and learning and development. So corporate learning development and also higher Ed learning and development.

And I'm wondering what changes you've seen over time in how interviews have just been conducted, what kinds of questions are being asked and what the trends are.

Yeah, I would say over time, when I was transitioning out of teaching into higher ed, it was like a dime a dozen, finding the instructional technology or instructional design jobs. was really super difficult, but it wasn't as competitive as it is nowadays. We talked about this on the podcast recently about the market being saturated. you were talking about your thinking of saturation different ways. And I think of it different ways too. It's like, it's just more people who are

Holly Owens (15:04.686)

qualified for the roles. Like people are very, you're gonna see it. Right, just text and I'm like, you can get it, get the dog. It's got stuff all over the floor. But it's like, you're competing with people who are on the same level as you or maybe, you know, have more experience than you. There's not gonna be this sort of situation where

I know.

Holly Owens (15:34.19)

You know, I could apply for a role in higher education back in 2013 and I may or may not have all the experience, but they would take a chance on me. That's not really happening anymore. There aren't the like, I'm gonna take a chance on Holly because I talked to her. I've seen some of her work. I think she can do it. You we're gonna give her time to upskill. We're gonna give her that time to be proficient. But it seems like nowadays everybody just wants you to just start.

Yeah, yeah, there's no there's no training and learning and development.

Yeah, it's funny, isn't it? It's kind of ironic. And that's actually, as I'm saying that, that's one of the questions I ask is how many months, how many days, what does their onboarding plan look like, their training plan? So that's one question I would encourage you to ask is what is the time to proficiency for somebody like myself coming in? I asked that recently in an interview, and they said, well, you're going to shadow me for a couple of weeks, and then we're just going to let you go.

And start the position because you have the experience which is a good thing and a bad thing in the sense like two weeks isn't a lot of time to kind of get familiar with the systems and all the different things but also to if I'm shattering a person who's already doing it I feel like that's very much, you know tied into like this is what's really happening every day in that role But going back to the saturation thing. It's saturated in the sense that there's tons of people who are qualified for the roles

So you have to stand out. And I a podcast episode about that recently.

Chelsea Avirett (17:15.278)

So one question, one of the conversations we're seeing in the chat is people talking about how many more interviews the process takes outside of education. Is that something that you're seeing, we're seeing more interviews or has it been pretty consistent?

I've seen, yeah, so I've seen, I've actually seen more depending upon the level of competition that's, you know, for the roles. They get thousands of applicants and they get very well qualified applicants. They're gonna put you, it feels like they're gonna put you through more, rigorous things to do, you know, and I've also seen like, it's more common nowadays for them to give you a task related to the position to complete to make sure like, you know,

People, I'm not gonna say people do this, they don't tell the truth all the time, okay? So they want you to prove that you can do what you say you can do. So there may be a related task that's kind of abbreviated in the sense that it's not a full like instructional design project, or it's just something where your project management, all that stuff. But I think that people are really,

they're really getting frustrated, myself included, by the number of rounds. And what I see this as is that the company is fearful that they're going to hire somebody that isn't going to fit. And it costs them money every time they hire somebody and then they leave. There's high turnover there. So pay attention to those things too. Also, they also want to make sure that they're getting the right people in there so that they do stay. So it's kind of...

kind of a double-edged sword when you think about it. actually interviewed, I think it was about a year ago for a company. I went through six rounds and I was a finalist and they kept me on the hook because they had somebody internally they wanted to hire. And it was terrible. I had to wait the whole weekend. I emailed the lady, the recruiter. said, okay, so what's going on?

Holly Owens (19:21.838)

You know, have they hired anybody yet? What's the word? You know, I was emailing them and asking them what was the status and she didn't message me till Monday morning, which we all know that causes anxiety in itself, the waiting period between the different interviews. And then they're like, no, somebody else, we hired somebody internally. And that's another thing too to mention is that if you make it through all these rounds and you get to a point where it's like you're one of three or whatever and you don't get the role.

They're probably hiring somebody internally. It's not you. It's not you. It's them. It really is.

And once you get to that stage, it can be so, so challenging to figure out who to hire because everybody is so well qualified. So you have an internal, you at least have some security there. But I think what you're pointing out, we, we, we talk a lot about the anxiety that job seekers face, but there's a lot of anxiety on the company side too, because it's kind of like dating. It feels like a very big decision for a lot of people.

police so

Chelsea Avirett (20:22.552)

There are a couple of interesting conversations going on in the chat. Some of these we're going to get to later. But I want to pull out one topic, because it's something I was thinking about too. So I get a ton of questions, and I know you do too, about what presenting your portfolio looks like during an interview. And we're also getting a lot of questions around tasks, specifically

Like, they done? Is it something you do beforehand or is it something they're asking you to do on the spot? So can you just kind of talk about some of the ways you're seeing people ask you to prove what you can do? are really, because they're also, as you said earlier, they're not just assessing that you can do it. They're assessing that you're the one who did it. And they want to make sure how much of it did you do yourself versus AI versus your colleagues?

Right. think one of the things and I'm seeing what's going on in the chat is about the fear of like they're getting work for free. And I make sure right off the bat that if they tell me good companies will tell you that this task, this isn't going to be used anywhere. This is simply used as part of the interview process. I mean, you just want to evaluate your skill set. So I would ask that because I have far too many times where people come back to me and they would say like coaching clients, then they would say,

Well, they took my work. I saw it a few months later, which I, I am baffled by that. So because a lot of companies make you sign an NBA when you're interviewing or if you're, getting past certain rounds because they're going to be sharing more and more about the company with you. Make sure that just say that, and I love the fact that, and she put, wait, Amy put watermarking, which I think is important or

You share it as a resource. If you're sharing something out like a drive link, you make it unavailable after that, or you make it available for certain amount of time so that they don't have access to that anymore after the interview. So yeah, people are tricky. But again, the good companies, and I do want to mention this, Chelsea, because a lot of the companies and jobs you share, they will tell you the whole process, and they will lay it out. Apply for those jobs right away.

Holly Owens (22:37.614)

because that tells you something about the company, the culture of the company. They have respect for the people that they're hiring, their employees. They wanna set you up for success. They want you to know they're not keeping any secrets. They're very transparent. They wanna know right away, want you to know right away what you're gonna be in for if you're going through the interview process. I've seen a lot more of those things mentioned in job descriptions lately than I have in the past too.

Yes, I think there's been a lot more conversation around the candidate experience, particularly when candidates are just getting, they're applying so frequently and not hearing back. And so I think that that is having the beneficial back, beneficial impact of having recruiters and hiring managers think, how do we improve this process? There's still a lot of work to be done. But those great job descriptions are one way that I see it as well.

Yeah, absolutely.

So let's kind of step back. you let's just say I'm going to interview you for a learning development position. How do you start preparing for this interview?

Yeah, you have to find something that definitely makes you stand out. one of the things I'll go back before you even get the interview, one of the things I mentioned in a recent podcast episode, I'm doing like this Ask Holly segment now, where I do 15 minutes of like answering a question and then go very, next episode I go deeper into it. So one of the, even before you get to the interview, one of the things I said to stand out is because

Holly Owens (24:12.238)

We have this plethora of like all these different documents. We have a portfolio. have professional references. We have our resume. We have, I don't know, whatever else. You built a website. There's just tons of stuff we're sharing. But one of the things that everybody's sharing though. So you're not, you're just sitting, and I did a TikTok about this. You're sitting in a pile of a pile of resumes, but how does yours become the shining star? How do you stand out? So one of the things I'm like,

There's got to be something unique that you can do that makes you stand out. there's two things I'll share. The first one is making a video that you link to in your resume about yourself, about what you've done professionally, about, know, my whole world revolves around learning and development. I don't know about everybody else or for people already in the position, but I drive past a billboard or I go to a coffee shop or I go to the local library and I'm like, how do all these processes work?

I think deeply about, even going to restaurant, think deeply about like, how does my order get from the computer to the kitchens and the kitchens, you know, like that's how my brain works. So I would do a video about like how learning development encompasses my life, not saying is my life, but it touches a lot of different pieces. This makes you more human. The resume is a very static document. It's unlike, I'm reading your...

You know, your journey, it's great. You have a lot of experience, but I want to know more about you. Then, so that's a good one. Keep it less than three minutes. Do something quick. Throw a prompt into ChatGPT. Get a quick script. Don't make it like it doesn't have to be Hollywood studio performance. And then include that link in your resume. Also the next one, which is something I just started doing, which I really, really love. And I'm sharing all my secrets now.

is I asked, so you know, on LinkedIn, have recommendations that people can, you can type recommendations for people, ask for recommendations. I'm like, you know what, those are boring too. Like, I'm not gonna read through. I know that, you know, such and such copy paste of this from Chat GPT. I know they mean it, they're authentic about me, but I ask people who are my most, my best references, I say, can you please record a video? Here's a script, and it's a video recommendation about how they work with you.

Holly Owens (26:37.336)

what they think of you, working together. Obviously, you're not gonna pick people who are gonna say something bad. You're gonna pick people who are gonna be honest and genuine and talk about the work that you've done. So those two things are gonna make you stand out initially just before you even get the interview. And then when you get into the interview process, I think people, as far as prepping is concerned, like the nerves start as soon as the interview is scheduled. As soon as you schedule the interview, you're like,

my God, I got to practice, I got to study. It's like studying for the big test. One of the things I like to do is find the company page. I like to see if they have some sort of strategic plan or they have like accessibility information or if they, know, there may be things you can just tell right off the bat that there's gaps there. And I ask them a question about something that's on their website. I prepare a question in advance and I say, I have seen your business plan.

I have seen your strategic plan. I have seen what your learning and development team is thinking about doing in the next five years. And I asked them a question about that. And they're like, ooh, she's done her research. But that also, too, gives you an insider's perspective into what's happening there. And if they don't have a plan, do you want to work there? Especially like.

You know, it gives you information too. So I would say in prepping for the interview, find something that you know, you can talk to and find common ground when you're in the interview. But on the other side of that, I like to encourage people to be confident because you are assessing that company in the interview just as much as they're assessing you.

Like I know we all want money. know we want to make millions. If you want to make millions, don't go on L and D because it's not happening. There's going to sales, But we're doing this because we have some sort of passion about it. So really just make sure that you are not putting all the responsibility like, just need this job. I'm just going to take it because far, far too many times, and Chelsea, I you've heard these horror stories, people have taken the role.

Chelsea Avirett (28:33.547)

Go to sale.

Holly Owens (28:56.832)

and they hated it. And then they were jumping again because they just took the role that was. Now, don't get me wrong, there's bridge jobs. There's things that you can do. You can have a job for like one to two years, stuff like that. But I want people to be confident, especially educators, because we come out of the classroom with all this trauma that we have to deal with before we even jump into something new. So be confident yourself and be like,

Like what would you ask somebody on a first date? Like, you know, I want to know if they're like a crazy cat person not you Chelsea. Yeah, I want to know like what are they seeing the future? know, like think of the questions you ask somebody when you're on a first date It's different in your 20s and it is in your 40s and that goes the same for like jobs too because you're looking for different things at those times in your life So confidence is key absolutely One last thing I'll say is that

I saw like some questions that were coming in about the STAR method and like writing down stuff and answering questions and we'll get into that. But I would just say think back in all of your roles and just have prep situations you've been in and have those ready to go. There's nothing that says you can't look off a piece of paper in an interview. There's nothing that says you can't have it up on the screen as a prompt. Like I scripted out for this particular presentation just I have notes.

So I just remember everything. So like certain situations at Amazon where I work with difficult SMEs or I work with difficult faculty in higher education or something I built from scratch or something I influenced, that I changed about a process. So have those ready to go. Then you won't even have to think. Write down the key words of the situation so that you just remember it.

Indeed. I also, one of the things I'll kind of echo there is people get really stressed when something goes slightly wrong in an interview. Or they think I answered that question poorly. I've interviewed people who have bombed a single question, but they've been fantastic everywhere else. And we pass them along because we're really focused on everything. So I think a lot of times that confidence you are talking about and being able to really relax and say, I don't have to be perfect.

Chelsea Avirett (31:13.046)

I just have to be human and really communicate myself.

That authenticity and that confidence gets you everywhere if I'm being honest like we're just not Nobody that works in the company's perfect perfect doesn't exist like they're they're absolutely 100 % looking for the unicorn and I'm like You have like 50 to 60 percent of the qualifications apply for the role People are he's deterred by the fact that they're like well I don't have this or I don't have that or I need to go and learn articulate real quick No, that's not the case. You need to just apply anyway

anyway.

particularly because there's so much boilerplate and they're like you have to have everything. But then the job is working with PowerPoint slides.

This is way beyond, this is like, I got this. This is easy.

Chelsea Avirett (32:02.134)

Yeah, definitely. Trust the job description, but don't believe it.

You need to the questions.

Exactly. And this, think a lot of this is really geared towards doing your research and personalizing how you approach an interview for each company. And it's a lot of work. But when you get to the interview stage, that means they think you're qualified. You really want to show fit. You want to show engagement. You really want to differentiate yourself exactly as Holly started with. So what are the things that

I wanted to talk a little bit about is some of the differences between corporate and university interview processes. And the reason I wanted to talk about this is for those of you who are teachers, sorry, corporate, higher ed can often be a great bridge job to get into corporate because a lot of times the higher ed companies, the higher ed organizations are looking for people. That's also true. Yes, there's a lot of money in there.

I'm not gonna, you're not wrong.

Chelsea Avirett (33:08.014)

But so these higher ed companies are looking for relevant skills, whereas the corporate is often looking for the relevant skills and some business experience. So can you talk a little bit about how your experience has been differently?

Yeah, so higher education, like you're saying, is a great bridge into for somebody coming out of the classroom, because higher education is built on pedagogy, adult learning theory. You know those things already. You're aware of those different types of theories and modalities. And it operates like when you're in a classroom, you're working with people in the classroom. You're just not at the forefront of the classroom. You're not the teacher. You're going to be working to support. You're going to kind of be in the supporting role, like in a play like The Backstage People.

So I would say with higher education and one thing I do want to be transparent about is notoriously higher education salaries are lower than in a corporate L and D space. So they're about 15 to 20,000 lower, unfortunately, but they're they're significantly higher than teaching because teaching does not teachers do not get paid what they should be paid in our culture and our society. higher education, like said, it is a good jumping off point, but don't expect that you're going to be jumping like

you know, thousands of dollars in salary range, but it's a comfort area. So it's an area that you know, it's an area that you feel like you can grow in and you're going to work with other people who are former teachers. You're going to be in a culture where people who have transitioned out of education. Just so you know that I don't know anybody. I mean, I know it's about to happen because of Gen Z and like what's happening in higher education and our industry and AI.

I don't know anybody that said I want to be an instructional designer when I grow up. That was their first job. It didn't exist. So you're not going to meet people who say, I've known since I was in eighth grade, I wanted to be an instructional designer. Not at this point, but maybe later on. Because now there's bachelor's degrees in instructional designs, which didn't previously exist. So you're among people who are doing the same thing that you're doing that are making the transition. Like I said,

Chelsea Avirett (34:56.974)

think have existed.

Holly Owens (35:21.176)

higher education is a comfort zone, but I also want to caution you, a cautionary tariff of higher education, just like K to 12, it's got a lot of red tape. There's a lot of bureaucracy. It moves notoriously slower than corporate. There's a lot of hoops you have to jump through to get things done. Innovation is often stagnated by that red tape. But like I said, you can make your own way. I always say like when I get into a role, like, what can I do here that's different than what everybody else has been doing?

you know, whether that's improving a ticketing process or that's, you know, transitioning from one ed tech to a different software for the school and laying out the plan. But higher education is definitely a comfort. And I would encourage you if you don't feel like you're ready to jump into corporate to go there first, because higher education, while they are a business, they're focused on learning. They understand learning. They understand what learning is. Now,

Corporate on the other hand, do we want to pause before I go into corporate?

let's see. the high level politics and higher end. Yeah

Huge. Oh my word. Huge. Like you, it's so interesting. When I worked at UMBC, I ran for the faculty senate. I had been there. I'm an alum of there. I'm from Maryland. And I was like, you know, I've been here a couple of years. I know a lot of different people across campus. I'm just, I'm going to nail this seat. Didn't get it. Didn't get it. Like it was like, and then a couple of weeks later, the president emailed me he's like, somebody dropped out, but you're the next one on line. was like, it's very political.

Holly Owens (36:57.228)

And I just wanted to be on the Senate to like have a voice for my particular area of the institution. It's crazy political. It's crazy.

So one of the questions we had earlier was really specific about whether you're hearing anything, hearing questions about AI. But I wanted you to think about that question, but also kind of in general, what are the questions that you're hearing right now that you think might surprise people or that they might not really be preparing for?

I think one of the things that might surprise people is like how much AI is actually impacting the position right now. It's not impacting, it's a part of it. know, like asking the questions around, like how do you use AI? What is your intention? Or have you ever built a policy for your L &D group around AI? And what does that look like? I'm like, whoa! Like I've never built like a formal policy around, know, like when you think about hire, they have tons of policies, companies have policies, but.

just thinking about like, this is what's gonna be happening as AI continues to evolve and thinking about the things that are gonna be impacting us as instructional designers or L &D professionals. And I think one of the things is like sifting through what's the truth as to what's the myth when it comes to AI and how it's going to impact these roles. So that's a question I was like, I'm...

I've kind of talked about policy before, but I've never formally made something. know, talking about data a lot more, there's a lot more around data because in higher education and in corporate data is very important to prove that the outcomes that you're trying to reach are happening. So just like business schools and corporate, higher education has accreditation things. So they have to kind of prove that. And I think data is a surprising question to me too, because as an instructional designer,

Holly Owens (38:55.192)

The only data that I've ever looked at is like for courses I've worked on or courses I was teaching. But now you're looking at it across the whole organization or the whole institution. And then they're like, well, what do you do with that data? What if the data is, it's not performing. Then they asked you, like somebody said something about the multi stage question. Like, what do you do if the data is showing that you did this great experience and it's not working? What do you do? How do you shift? How do you pivot right away? That, that stuff makes me want to cry.

Because I'm like, how do you prepare for that? It's just, it's like, it's like you just, you know, you just have to take a deep breath and take, take one of those scenarios that you wrote down and try to answer the question as best as you can. But those ones intimidate me. They intimidate me for sure. And they're getting, they're, they're just shifting. It's not like, okay, well tell us about you. Well, tell us about your experience. Well, tell us, you know,

Let's go through your resume. It's not like that anymore.

And I know you've been on the interview, you've interviewed people before too. And some of the questions that came in before our session were around like what happens when you get faced with one of these questions. But from the interview side, a lot of times we're not looking for you to actually have the answer. don't necessarily, you may not have written an AI policy, but we wanna see how you think. What is the way you approach that kind of unfamiliar scenario? What is the way you approach policy development?

And so a lot of times if you can't answer the specific question, really turn it into thinking about your process and talking about what you do that's similar. Because if you're pivoting, people know you're pivoting. And they're not necessarily going to be expecting you to answer the question the same way that two people who have already worked in the field answered it. So one of the things I think is most of the time the interviewer is on your side.

Chelsea Avirett (40:56.686)

They're not going to have called you in unless they're actually really interested in hearing from you.

Exactly. You're exactly right. And you know, I think we put too much weight behind this, this whole process. And that's what really does stress us out about, especially teachers. Or I know there's a lot of educators in the room and you're like, I can't tell you how many teachers I've come across and they're like, well, I'm not going to include my teaching experience on my resume. I'm like, why? Well, obviously we've seen some companies names that remain unmentioned, but like we don't hire former educators versus stupid on their part, but.

It's like you're thinking about it in a way like, my God, that, you know, like I've been in the classroom for 20 years. This is all I've ever known. Like, and now I'm to step into something new. It's definitely, it's definitely a transition and there's a lot of different things you have to go through to deal with that transition. But look what you did for 20 years. Look what you did for 10 years. Why wouldn't you honor that experience on your resume? Why wouldn't you honor that experience in talking about

the processes that you did in the classroom, like lesson planning, unit planning, creating assessments, activities, like, you know, dealing with the students and classroom management, like project management is a part of all that. Data, you have grading, that's data. So thinking about all those different things.

So there's been an interesting conversation going on that I've been partially following. And it's a good question that I don't have a great answer for. So I'm going to throw it on to you. So one of the things I hear a lot of times from people who are a little bit older than me, so full disclosure, I'm in my mid 40s. And I'm really thrilled to have 20 years of experience because I'm like, yes, I am now.

Holly Owens (42:38.392)

Finally!

But then we get people who are, you know, they have an extra 10 years of experience and they start to really get nervous about the job discrimination. There was the workday lawsuit where they were actually blocking people who were certain age, which is appalling. And I can't wait for the discovery. We're going to find so much out. But from a practical standpoint, the more experience you have, you're really bringing in a lot of knowledge and expertise.

But the question is, is there that bias? And if there is that bias, what are some strategies people can use to combat it?

Yeah, don't apply for entry level stuff. That's one. They're going to be really biased towards you if you're applying for entry level stuff because you're not entry level. They're just going to it's not going to have anything to do with age. It's going to have to do with your experience. I mean, which can be correlated with age, but don't apply for entry level stuff. I tell people coming out of class and when you have so many years experience, like you are definitely mid to higher. You're in the mid to the higher range and you should be looking for roles. You should be looking for leadership roles.

You should be looking for roles that are like have senior in the title or director in the title. You know, and I know people are going to say, but I don't have any experience in instructional design, but there are things that you can do to prepare yourself for these positions, like using some of the resources I share. We're just talking to people like in the roles. I would just deter you from applying to entry level roles thinking that you have to start over because I think

Holly Owens (44:13.516)

people, like if I apply for an entry level role, people will probably, would expect them to laugh right now. I would expect them to be like, I don't understand why she did this. She must be really desperate for something. But again, it goes back to honoring that experience. I've had plenty of people, sorry, my voice is kind of getting after the workday. I've had plenty of people tell me that they found great companies, some of these smaller companies, the ones that you post about Chelsea, that have

honor their teaching experience, and use their experience there to propel them into these leadership roles. So maybe you don't start as a senior, but you might start in a mid-level position. And then like a year later, you're in the director role because you've learned things. Yeah, lot. So if you don't want to manage people, like a senior instructional designer, you may or may not be managing instructional designers. But if you don't want to manage people, then you're going to limit yourself to just like the mid-roles.

that require no supervision or manager experience, I totally get. Managing is a lot, like you're just managing people, you're managing people all day long and like you can't get any of your work done. I totally get that. But you can find stuff that's, you you've had a few roles out there on skip that have been like director of professional services, I think was one of them.

I posted a director level rule today that I'm pretty sure didn't have management.

Yeah, like they don't it's kind of like being like a CEO like a CIO like a chief academic like you're in a very top level position You're not necessarily C-suite but you're you're above the where you have people who are doing the managing you're just kind of Delegating and you're paying attention more to what's happening at the top and then you're sharing that information out with the rest of the people that are working with you But yeah, there there are some roles where you can be at the top level

Holly Owens (46:08.846)

and you're not managing people. You're gonna have to interact with people. I'm not gonna lie. You're not gonna be at Hermit. We're not in IT. We're not gonna be Hermit Center behind the computer. You're gonna have to work with people. But I got away from that question a little bit. It's more like, hopefully, an initial question.

Yeah, well, think we covered it well. We were initially talking about the whether people like age discrimination, but I love that advice to not apply for entry level roles because a lot of times we get focused on the job description, same ed tech skills, but I notice a lot of the roles I post actually frame it a little differently. They will say.

looking for adult learning experience. And that's a real clue that that's a great job for you to apply for. So I would definitely, yes, there's definitely age discrimination. There's no way we can say there isn't, but also don't sell yourself short. I love how you're saying value your experience because-

There's a whole episode I did on where I did it by myself because I was feeling like, you'll notice that I'm kind of like Taylor Swift. Like when I'm feeling something, I'm doing a podcast episode about it. I'm writing about it. like, so I did an episode recently where knowing your worth and your value because oftentimes, and I will say this to former teachers, we sell our shelves short because we think we don't deserve it when we actually do.

you know, like, especially being a woman in this industry, being somebody who's worked in corporate with Amazon with, I think one time I looked at our leadership, it was all male. I was like, what is going on here? It's like, need a, we need a gallon here. You know, we need somebody else, somebody different, some diversity. But knowing your worth is something that comes with like moving away from the imposter syndrome. You're going to have it. It's not going to go away completely.

Holly Owens (48:08.494)

But knowing that you need this salary to be survive, you need a salary to put away some for retirement to sustain your current lifestyles. Like the confidence is key. And I think that's one of the things that resonates with people is like, I'm very confident on the screen. Like I have applied, like people say I've applied to hundreds and hundreds of jobs and I've, I've, I've done that too in recent months and I have gotten, I was like, everybody does it.

I know this role is for me. I'm going to get this role because I have all the experience necessary. And guess what? I got a rejection email within 30 minutes. I know it's an ATS system, but confidence in knowing your worth, please don't sell yourself short. Because we don't get to do this again. We don't get to, I don't want you having to jump into a role that you don't like, or you're not getting paid enough. And then you're like, I have to find a second job.

where most of us do have different side hustles and things like that.

And I think that one of the things that I think I'm kind of following the conversation here, we often think hiring managers don't understand that because we're not getting interviews. going back to something Holly was talking about earlier on, anytime you're interviewing people, you've got about 50 % of the people who apply who are halfway qualified for the position. So a lot of times they're not making the decision

about, this person has teaching experience. I don't want to hire them. They're making the decision of, I've got five people who have this experience that I listed as a preferred experience. So I'm going to start with them. one of the things with imposter syndrome, don't say just because I'm not getting results. It means that I'm applying to the wrong jobs. Keep applying to a lot of those stretch jobs because you're going to find the right one. And I think Holly's advice to focus on the smaller companies

Chelsea Avirett (50:09.678)

Spot on. was talking to someone, she was a teacher a couple of years ago. Now she's a sales director and she, you know what she's doing? She's saving roles for teachers. She's like, this role is only for teachers. So there are a lot of people in the industry who are trying to help people transition as well. So.

We're all in here. We want more of us in here because it's making the sector better, whether that's corporate, higher education, government. We are here and we want to bring other teachers on who are ready for something different, but still make a change. Because teachers have this crazy, I don't know, it's kind of like nurses. You do the show because you have something innate in you that teaching

gives you and that you want to give back and you don't expect anything in return and that's kind of like what L &D is.

Yes, I agree. one of the things I found and we're seeing it in this chat to learning development is we are the kind of people we get together and somebody says, oh, I'm looking at this and they're like, oh, I can help you with that. And you get all these resources and it's really a beautiful thing. Like I can't even keep up with the entire chat. So it's wonderful. So we are running into a little bit of the end of this session. So what I want to do is ask you one final question and then

If there are some burning questions we haven't gotten to, because again, I've definitely missed some things in the chat, throw a couple of burning questions and we'll try to get at least one or two of them.

Holly Owens (51:43.18)

Yeah, I noticed one right away. I just want to point out the recruiters and the hiring managers. The recruiters don't necessarily know instructional design or learning and development. Most of the recruiters you're dealing with are just recruiters. So don't think they know about learning and development. OK, so don't assume that they know anything about the role of what you're going to be doing. And we can talk about recruiters another time, but there's some good ones and there's some bad ones just like going on dates and stuff. But don't put all your like, the recruiter is going to.

know, the recruiter is like the key to everything. No, it's going to be you. So I just want to mention that.

Yeah, and recruiters are screening. So what that means is you want to be able to say, oh, you're asking a question about my adult learning experience. Let me tell you about my adult learning experience.

Right now. It's very transactional.

Yes. So the question that I really want to ask is, I have been hearing a lot of really bad stats lately. And one of them is that 70 % of people get jobs through networking. And I question the 70%. But I also think some of it is, what do we define as networking? So the reason I wanted to ask you this question, Holly, is that you have this extensive network.

Chelsea Avirett (52:58.048)

So you know everybody in the industry and you have this fantastic learning and development podcast. Everyone is listening to you and you have a huge network. You also have like 50,000 LinkedIn followers. So I'm curious whether or not for you, you're thinking, yes, networking is how I get a job, but it sounds like you're still applying to jobs just like everybody else. So talking about how networking, how you approach networking.

I'm die.

First of all, I want to say that that network was built, let's win tears, to 50,000 over the past five years. It is not easy to network. However, when I think about this whole process, is like we're all human. We all have to connect with each other and know different things and know different people. And the one thing to me that hasn't changed in any sector

through the application process or looking for roles or different things is that You have to know somebody to know somebody That is a thing now. I don't think it's 70 % I can't say that for sure I think it might be a little bit less than that But I will say that if you know people There are things think of it like this. This is how I think of it. Like think of Zillow like the real estate platform

There houses that are pre-market that you don't even see come onto the market. So there's pre-market jobs. Like I had somebody post something in a group that they hadn't posted on LinkedIn yet looking for contract IDs. So there are those types of things. So you want to know where to be to get into those situations. Not saying that's the only way to get jobs.

Holly Owens (54:43.436)

And then of course you have the houses that are for sale or the jobs that are like everybody, like what's on Chelsea's site, what's on LinkedIn, what's on Deed or whatever, know, whoever you follow out on LinkedIn world that does the job posting. Like you see all the different ones and every, those are all for grabs for everybody. But also too, through networking and having conversations with people, I had somebody tell me recently, they said there's going to be an upcoming like role.

you know, on the lookout, like I'm saying that pre-sale stuff, you know, would you be interested in possibly applying for the job? So if you've worked in previous positions that might have like an L and D feel or touch, I would go back to those people and be like, has anything opened? Or do you think, is there a possibility that I can do some contract work with you all? Because it doesn't just come through like knowing the person and Chelsea and I were talking about this previously before we started the session about coffee chats.

I don't know how I feel about coffee chats. People ask me for coffee chats all the time. I started my networking out doing that and it worked really well, but now it feels like something that's transactional and people just, either keep asking for more free stuff or they ghost me or they're not really, they don't really read my LinkedIn or they don't know me. And that's the thing too, when you're networking, you should definitely do some research on the person. I've had people come in and think that like I worked

before I even worked in marketing, that I was a marketer. And I'm like, no, did you really? Or that I'm hiring. Yeah. Or that I'm hiring. Or that I have some tie to these roles. So I think networking is important for you. LinkedIn's getting a lot, getting a lot of bad, getting a bad reputation lately. I don't know why. L and D, I don't feel like we're there, but maybe in other sectors you are. So you definitely need to know somebody that knows somebody because

that you're hiring.

Holly Owens (56:39.49)

We're so giving and we share so much information with each other that there's going to be a job where you're to be like, there hasn't been a thousand people that apply to it. Is this going to be a small company that uses a Google form to express your interest or to apply for the role? that's my take.

Yeah, and I think I agree with a lot of that. I think we can also think about networking. Somebody was talking a little bit about this. The cold messaging, a lot of times creating a conversation and the comments can really be networking. you build relationships. Actually, I think that's probably how we started chatting and then we started chatting in person. So thinking about networking not as this big task. I don't have to have a 20 minute coffee chat.

That's much more.

Chelsea Avirett (57:26.646)

I just have to make a connection. I think that's a great approach.

Yeah, don't go into LinkedIn like, you know, like so many people and I say this like we don't have we don't necessarily have connections or into the jobs are posting. We're kind of we're sourcing them. So people go I'm interested. I'm like, well then apply. You know, or they they they put they either message you directly or like, can you review my resume? They're asking for free services or they're like they put their resume in the comments and they want people to you know, there's

There's certain places for those things. There's certain groups and things that you can do that. And that's not in the comments section of somebody who applies for it. I do love seeing it though when somebody posts a role in L &D and then people are like, I'm interested. I applied. I can't wait to talk to you. I love that. I love seeing the attention around what a job gets because that's just getting more more qualified candidates. But don't be like, I'm interested. Here's my resume. What should I do to fix it or interview me now? Like that kind of stuff. People are.

people are so bold, there's a certain set of rules you have to follow to kind of get into the network.

Well, it's like what you said earlier with your video. You want to see the person behind it. And so when you see that comment, you're getting to know the person behind it. But add something to that comment. Talk about project you've done or something like that that really gets them excited. excellent. Tony, I posted a couple of director roles, but I wish you luck with all of them. So last word, Holly.

Chelsea Avirett (59:01.678)

I'm going to have a broad open-ended question. What do you think is the final word that you would say about interviewing? We've talked about so many different aspects of it, everything from the emotional side to some of the tactical strategy side. What do you want to close with?

I really just want everybody to remember that you're more than just a piece of paper. You're more than a portfolio. You're more than whatever project you did in the past and failed at. To me, like when you're looking for a new job, it's because you've hit a point where you're either, you know, I don't want to say bored, but you're looking for more of a challenge. You're looking for something different that is going to make your life better. And

I want people to know that you are so much more than those pieces of papers and those professional resources. I'll tell you this. I have gone through resumes and been on hiring committees. And I have picked people like this is going to be the top candidate from the resume. And guess what? They were terrible. They were terrible. So that piece of paper doesn't necessarily say who you are.

everything in your power. Get those video recommendations. Do a video yourself. Step out of your comfort zone. You are worth it. You are 100 % worth it. And you should not settle for anything less at this stage, many of you at this stage in your career. You deserve something better. And reach out to me and Chelsea. We will tell you where to go. There are other places like you can find roles. Create like, the last thing I'll say is create opportunity for yourself.

Don't rely on the corporations and the powers that be to make you think that you need to have a job in certain areas. Create your own path. Like I've created roles, like the director of growth marketing, Shawna created that just for me. Like I didn't do anything that wasn't a post-it role. So please know your worth. You are more than just a piece of paper. And go for it. You got it.

Chelsea Avirett (01:01:11.874)

I think it's a fantastic way to end Beth. This is Holly's Holly's podcast that I popped up. It's the Ed up learning and development. Here's their other.

Yeah, and up learning and development podcast.

Excellent podcast. was where I was missing. Yeah, so I love all of these comments that we're getting. I'm glad people have found this useful. I love listening to Holly and I seriously I always write things down because I'm like, quote Holly on this.

It's okay.

Holly Owens (01:01:40.856)

There's more. mean, we can probably do another one of these, if I'm being honest.

Well, we've got a bunch of requests for them and also for a couple of just asking questions, which is nice because it means less prep for us and we can still add value.

Happy to jump on and do a Q &A, just the whole thing like a radio show.

Yeah, I like that approach, so we will definitely keep that in mind as.

You're welcome everyone. Have a great night. Afternoon.

Chelsea Avirett (01:02:08.33)

Yes, so for those of you who are asking about the recording, as soon as I hit stop on all this, an automatic email goes out. It's beautiful. I love automation. I'm excited about the recording, as well as some of the links that we shared too. So you'll get Holly's LinkedIn, you'll get my LinkedIn, and in particular, I can't remember now what I wrote, but I think I shared each of these links on there. So, cool. Great. Thank you all for coming.

And we really appreciate you spending your evening with us. Alright. I'm gonna hit pause. Good night. I'm so I'm going turn off the session, but then we're still audible. I learned last time.

Okay, we have to go off the stage.

wait, you go on, is that how you do it? but then we can't talk to each other, right? This is a new system for those of you who are still on.

Right.

Holly Owens (01:03:04.866)

watching this.

Wait, I can't hear you now.

My mic hit it.

At any rate, I will say thank you Holly and have a lovely night. I'm going to, yes it is like the after party.

too.

Holly Owens (01:03:23.768)

Yeah, this is the after show where we really get into the good stuff.

Exactly. All the secrets. All right. So I'm going end it. And then I think it's going to kick us all off. So have a good night and good night, everyone.