174: Making the Invisible Visible: Nicole L’Etoile on Building Inclusive Futures—Starting Now

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Hi friends.
It's Holly Owens and welcome to

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another fabulous and proactive
episode of End Up L&D.

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And I say proactive with purpose
today because we are diving in

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deep into accessibility with
none other than Nicole Latrois.

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Yes, she's back.
If you missed her the first

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time, go ahead and hit rewind
after this because Nicole is the

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accessibility expert you need in
your network and possibly in

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your LMS.
Since our last chat, she's been

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on a mission, running
accessibility cohorts, repping

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the world for WUKAG 2.1
compliance, and launching A

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widely popular LD Slack
community that's become the

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space for accessibility pros and
newbies alike.

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In this episode, we're covering
what's coming in 2026 with the

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new federal ADA Title 2
regulations.

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Spoiler alert, it's a big deal.
Why accessibility needs to be

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baked in, not bolted on.
When new IDs and corporate

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teams.
What new IDs and corporate teams

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get wrong and how to fix it.
How to get involved in her

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thriving community of
accessibility advocates.

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Whether you're brand new to
digital accessibility or you're

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the designated can you check
this contrast person on your

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team, Nicole drops knowledge you
can use right now, and with her

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usual mix of insight,
practicality, and passion, it's

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time for you to grab your coffee
or matcha and let's dive in.

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Hi, we're Ice Spring, an
international team of e-learning

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enthusiasts who help more than
60,000 clients across the globe

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succeed with better online
learning.

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Our two flagship solutions are
ispring Suite and ispring Learn

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LMS.
Ispring Suite is an intuitive,

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all in one authoring tool for
creating engaging elearning

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content, and ispringlearn is an
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platform for onboarding,
upskilling, and certifying your

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teams.
We also provide tons of free

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resources for aspiring and
experienced e-learning

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professionals, conduct weekly
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experts, and organize annual
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challenges, and championships.
We'd be happy to get to know you

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and pick a solution that fits
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Go to www.icepringsolutions.com
to learn more about us, download

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our resources, and connect.
Hello everyone, and welcome to

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another fantastic fabulous.
I'm going to stay proactive

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because we're talking about
accessibility today episode of

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Ed up L and DI am happy,
grateful, pumped.

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We're pumped to welcome back my
friend Nicole, who is going to

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tell us all about accessibility.
But first, Nicole, tell people

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who you are, what you do.
You've been on a previous

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episode.
They need to go back and listen

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to it.
But tell us all about you for

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those in the audience who have
not met you yet.

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All right.
Hey, everyone.

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Hi, I'm Nicole Latwal.
It is great to, you know, be

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back here with you, Holly.
I'm just so excited.

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We have so much to catch up on.
It's been just over a year and a

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lot has happened.
I'll, you know, say that it's

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been busy in a good way.
I can't complain with my company

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Latwal Education just growing
the course, making online

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content accessible for all.
We're now heading into, we're in

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the third cohort, kind of the
4th.

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We had a side one happen and we
can talk about that a little bit

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that just popped up.
And so we're we're coming into

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the 4th cohort this October and
just really excited.

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And with that, I've had a few
clients along the way doing

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audits for learning management
systems and courses, getting

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ready for the new ADA title to
ruling, getting clients for

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that.
If you don't know people,

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something federal's coming out
that's going to impact you, pay

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attention.
Big deal.

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So anyway, yeah, so, so it's
been good supporting some

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clients around different spaces,
you know, coming out of

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education this past year, the
last six months and and working

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with organizations at local and
state agencies and governments

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too.
So a little bit of everything.

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Yeah, I've been watching you.
I've been in all the stuff that

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you've been doing.
And I'm like, like, where first

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of all, where does she find all
the time to do that?

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And second of all, I'm like,
this is such an important topic

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around accessibility because
people are still Nicole, and I

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know this bothers you just just
as much as it bothers me, are

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taking accessibility and they
are not putting it as more of a

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proactive approach in their
organizations or institutions.

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They're more reactive to it.
I feel like what's coming down

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the line with the federal
regulations will hopefully get

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people to have a proactive
approach.

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But before we dive into all the
stuff you've been doing, can you

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tell to us a little bit about
why it's important for

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accessibility to be something
that's proactive in a company

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rather something rather than
something that's reactive?

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Well, it's less painful.
We'll just start there, right?

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Yeah, it'll be a whole lot it.
It doesn't seem to be that it's

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a whole lot easier.
It's a it's a lot less painful

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in terms of, yes, learning is
hard.

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We have to learn how to build
accessibility, but it's harder

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when we have to go back and and
retrofit and rethink and rework

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because we know.
It's time.

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It's time, but it's also like
you put your effort, you know,

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you put your heart and soul into
something you could find.

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You create it.
It's your baby.

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You've you've put all this
energy and to have it feel as if

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like there's something wrong
with it when there's not.

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It's nothing that is wrong with
it.

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We're just out, you know,
looking for ways to improve it

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so that all can use your
beautiful, amazing content.

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But it's harder when it's
already done and designed to

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then look back.
Especially folks who've been in

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this for a while where they have
catalogs of courses and it's

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overwhelming to think, you know,
where do I start?

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Do I go back and fix all this?
Most people get overwhelmed with

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it because they want it to be
good.

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That's because they do care.
So when they retrofit and they

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come back after, they think I
got to go back and fix

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everything now, yeah.
So once you see it, you can't

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Unsee it, I promise.
So yeah, so I think that's why

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it gets harder.
Yeah, yeah, I definitely agree

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with you too.
And just, you know, I just want

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to start off with that question
right off the bat because I feel

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like it's, it just bothers me
that it's still not a thing to

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people.
It's still just like this, this

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checklist item that we'll worry
about later.

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And I really feel like people
shouldn't, accessibility

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shouldn't be an afterthought.
Like you said, it makes things

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easier.
It, it really helps everyone.

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It's just not with people with
disabilities.

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It's people who, you know, like
color contrast.

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Oh my gosh, that's the one that
bugs me the most.

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So I'm being honest when I see
things out on LinkedIn or I see,

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you know, I am judging you.
If you're using like yellow

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backgrounds and you're using
like low contrast the colors, it

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just that kind of stuff is just
so easy to fix.

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It's.
You know, like kind of look and,

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and think I don't have time to
learn it.

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So I, you know, we've got new
designers, we will get it.

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I know we're going to get into
this, but I have a new Finder

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right now who's fantastic
putting in all this work into

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the course that we're teaching
and making accessible.

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But they're also trying to learn
the tool at the same time while

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learning to be a designer.
And I give them kudos for saying

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I'm going to learn it from the
start, But you can see the

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learning curve there.
And they're just said to me, it

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was almost like I just wanted to
reach across the, the zoom and

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be like, no comment, I'll help
you, You know, like maybe I

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should just build it and then I
can go back and worry.

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I was like, no, no, no, we're
not doing that.

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We're not doing that.
We're not doing that.

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So I can see if you're not, you
know, if you don't have the

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guidance which we can get into,
like I have this big grand idea

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for a mentoring program next
year, whatever.

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Like, I just feel like we need
to, you know, do something

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because we can't keep doing what
we're doing.

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Well, tell us about all you've
been doing because you've been

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doing a lot.
You've had a lot of great

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initiatives that's happened in
the past year, including your

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accessibility cohorts, working
with Luke Hopson in the

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Instructional Design Institute.
So tell us what you've been off

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to.
What have you been doing this

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past 365 days?
You asked me where you getting

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all this time?
I remember sitting here a year

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ago too, talking to Doctor Luke
Hopson going how do you do all

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this?
Where do you?

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Right.
And now I'm going, oh, I kind of

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get it now because.
I understand.

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Drive and yeah, so, yeah, so the
the course launched as part of

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Instructional Design Institute
as part of Idi and it was kind

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of a branch off of that.
And we had our first cohort in

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January of this year 2025 almost
said January 2020.

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Five.
I know it's so close.

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It's like. 2025 and we've had a
mix of folks coming in from

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higher Ed we've had some K12
more of the virtual online space

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K12 but higher Ed K12 but also
corporate nonprofit folks who

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are consultants themselves who
want to increase their knowledge

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so they can offer this to as a
service to their clients.

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We've had folks who are
overseeing as a director of

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curriculum that are working on
new launches of Ed tech programs

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that are trying to up, you know,
upskill and accessibility.

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So we've just had so many
different folks and and new

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designers is what I'm really
excited to see.

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I love hearing that, by the way.
Me too.

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That's.
Great.

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Yeah.
Me too.

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Yeah, it's great to have a one.
Yeah.

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So like what are you seeing?
Like what are some of the things

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that you're seeing with these
cohorts or people coming in

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where, where are they kind of
lacking in the, the knowledge of

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accessibility or what are some
of the things like they're just,

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I wanna know about blank here
because it's probably a question

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that a lot of our audience
members have too.

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When they don't follow you on
LinkedIn, they need to follow

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you because you give
accessibility tips as well.

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But where do you kind of see
where it's common across that

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everybody's asking about this or
that?

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As we know everything varies so
and as the cohort has gone on,

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we, you know, we started out
with I think I had 10 people,

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the 1st 113, the second one we
got up to, you know, 15.

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This one it's growing and the
levels as it goes on have I've,

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I've gotten more advanced and
newer.

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So we are seeing an increased
level of folks who have been

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doing this on their own right,
self teaching, working through

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it and folks that are just new
to it.

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So what I see is someone who
hasn't explored the web

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accessibility guidelines at all.
As soon as I start using Wu CAG

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and putting out the numbers and
we start saying Wu CAG 2.21, you

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know, like sometimes it's like
that is I don't want to know

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that just yet.
We get a, a glimpse of there's a

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lot to learn here.
And then I have someone in my

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cohort who's Wukag specialist,
that's in their title, who's

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just like, give me your process.
How are you auditing?

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And I need to do this for my job
and I'd like to learn from you

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at the same time.
Yeah.

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So yeah, it's we're, we're
really divided in.

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Skill levels are like and
knowledge levels are really

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across the board.
We.

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Have a big gap right now and
it's like closing that and

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trying to get people to and
meeting them where they are.

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And I do love that this is
facilitated.

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I don't think I could ever teach
or just create the self-paced

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and send people on their way
because you to meet them where

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they are.
I mean, we, we pivot, we're,

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we're using UDL universal time
for learning in practice in this

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moment and being responsive.
And I meet typically by Week 2,

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I can get a sense of where you
are.

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So then I can start to target
and kind of create a pathway

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that supports you while others
are being supported in their

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pathway and hopefully they can
work together.

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And that's the beauty of a
cohort, right?

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So, so it's just kind of like
trying to figure out.

225
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So we've just got different,
different levels all over the

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place We've got.
Yeah, I I can see that.

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00:12:06,360 --> 00:12:08,400
And I think it's, I think it's
interesting too that you're

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getting people who have that
actually in their title and

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that's their, their role in like
you say, we don't know

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everything.
We know a lot in terms of you're

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an accessibility expert.
I know a lot about LND jobs.

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I don't know everything.
So it's important to remain open

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to learn from those people as
well, see what they're doing,

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ask them questions.
Because while we remain an

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expert, we still have things to
learn.

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One of the things I want you to
mention is when's your next

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cohort coming?
Because we're gonna, we're gonna

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include everything in the show
notes for that.

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Yeah, October 1st and this one
is an 830 early AM Eastern Time.

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00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:47,720
We've been that helps anyone in
the because the EAA, the

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European Accessibility Act is
also driving some of folks to

242
00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:54,520
the course and driving some of
the work which has been helpful

243
00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:56,000
for us here in the States as
well.

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And if you're out there
listening, we're meeting 8:30 to

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accommodate the European
schedule nice and early.

246
00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:05,520
Wednesday to me, 830.
I'm about 90 minutes into my

247
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work day because I'm an early
bird.

248
00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:10,000
Yeah, for some people, yeah.
I was like, so I don't know how

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that works for your W coaster.
If you want to get up at 5:30

250
00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:14,440
and join us, we'd love to grab
your coffee, grab your tea,

251
00:13:14,440 --> 00:13:16,440
whatever it may be.
You could always go back to

252
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sleep.
I don't know.

253
00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:20,040
Or maybe just start your day.
Yeah, you become up at 5:00 AM

254
00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:21,840
or.
Sounds good.

255
00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:24,720
So we'll have everything in the
show notes on how to sign up for

256
00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:26,640
that.
What else are you doing?

257
00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:28,880
What else are there?
Exciting initiatives are

258
00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:30,880
happening.
Yeah, I feel again, there's a

259
00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:35,680
lot in terms of well, since we,
you know, we started this

260
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accessibility LED slack and I
say we because like I.

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Well, let's try.
And I forgot about the Slack

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channel too.
Oh, and there's 812 people in

263
00:13:42,920 --> 00:13:45,520
there as of this morning, and we
just launched to.

264
00:13:45,640 --> 00:13:48,560
Get in there.
And so, you know, one of the, it

265
00:13:48,560 --> 00:13:51,520
was one of those things, I was
in a live session, I was in a

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00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:54,800
webinar and I got to give a
shout out to Lewis and the TLDC

267
00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:58,040
group over there because it was
one of those sessions.

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I don't remember exactly what
conference it was and I was

269
00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:04,040
watching someone or listening to
someone present.

270
00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:07,000
Again, not being an expert, I
still go to everything to see

271
00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:10,440
what other people do, to see if
I've missed anything, make some

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00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:12,120
connections.
And I was in someone's

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00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:14,800
presentation, a little newer to
accessibility and I was

274
00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:18,040
listening and I was like, we
need a place for all of us to go

275
00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:21,320
regularly.
Yes, I know these groups exist,

276
00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:24,520
but we haven't talked all about
accessibility, access, you know,

277
00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:26,320
24/7.
We we need that.

278
00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:33,000
So I sent a message to, to two
other people on LinkedIn.

279
00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:34,440
I was like, I'm going to do
this.

280
00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:36,480
Do you want in?
And they were like, yeah, what

281
00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:37,880
are you thinking?
I'm like, I don't know, a couple

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00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:41,320
of days maybe I'll post it.
Not even you know this is how

283
00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:43,680
Nicole works Within 5 minutes
Post it because I had the

284
00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:46,560
thought and I was like.
Yeah, we're the same, yeah.

285
00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:52,600
Here it's now it's fresh, get it
out there and it apparent people

286
00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:54,560
says this is what a viral post
is.

287
00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:57,240
I didn't know what that was at
the time because I'd never had

288
00:14:57,240 --> 00:15:00,040
anything more than a 500, you
know, whatever impressions.

289
00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:04,320
And so it grew and it got a lot
of notice and a lot of people

290
00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:07,560
joined and we have some great
questions in there, great

291
00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:09,720
conversations, sharing of
resources.

292
00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:13,560
People are doing coffee chats.
We started the Summer of Access

293
00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:18,320
webinar series, free series this
summer with everybody there, you

294
00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:22,600
know, stepped up, took a session
and yeah, we could talk about

295
00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:25,120
that too.
So that's a new initiative that

296
00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:28,200
branched off of that.
And we, we had three sessions in

297
00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:31,960
June, 3 or 4 in July, and we've
got four more coming up.

298
00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:34,240
So by the, I think by the time
this comes out though, it'll

299
00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:37,000
have completed.
But it was called the Summer of

300
00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:42,600
Access webinar series and we had
a everyone doing things from,

301
00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:47,920
you know, audio descriptions to
how to how to blind learners use

302
00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:53,520
the screen reader, navigating a
course with MBDA, I don't know,

303
00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:58,080
we did keyboard navigation, all
free, you know, anywhere from 45

304
00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:01,600
to an hour sessions.
And those are just people in the

305
00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:03,720
Slack group that said I'll do
something, I'll do something.

306
00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:07,000
So I've just kind of put it all
together and got it out there.

307
00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:09,720
And it's like your own little,
it's your own little workshop

308
00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:12,960
series happening and the Slack
channel generated that.

309
00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:15,560
So networking is important,
everyone.

310
00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:17,400
Networking is very, very.
Important.

311
00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:19,600
Important.
Will those recordings, will we

312
00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:21,720
be able to share those or did
you?

313
00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:24,200
They're OK.
So we did as a you know.

314
00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:27,000
OK, five groups with a slack.
But to the they're cuz they're

315
00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:29,520
they're unlisted on YouTube and
so if you get into the.

316
00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:30,960
Understood.
Yeah, Yeah.

317
00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:32,520
So we'll get everybody into
that.

318
00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:36,320
Slack groups, right?
Every the thing I love about

319
00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:39,240
this most is and all they're
doing the cohort and things like

320
00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:42,280
that is that most of it's free.
It's like people don't

321
00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:45,280
understand that the resources
that you need in order to become

322
00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:48,440
a quote UN quote expert and
accessibility are free.

323
00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:52,480
It's not like you need to pay
for something if you want more

324
00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:54,480
of like what you're doing with
the cohort, you want more of

325
00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:55,760
that.
Like the we're going through

326
00:16:55,760 --> 00:16:58,960
this at a certain pace and we're
breaking it out and scaffolding

327
00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:03,080
into certain topics.
And you know that that is

328
00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:05,680
something that takes a little
bit longer to kind of organize.

329
00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:08,400
So obviously that's paper, but
most of the stuff it's like free

330
00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:10,359
that's out there.
Yeah, there's a lot of free

331
00:17:10,359 --> 00:17:12,400
right now and you can get in
there and be part of it.

332
00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:15,319
And then, yeah.
And so the, the paid option,

333
00:17:15,319 --> 00:17:18,880
it's it's I'm, I'm coaching, I'm
giving feedback, you know where

334
00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:21,800
we're taking your project and
we're we're fixing it along the

335
00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:23,440
way.
It's just, it's a, it's, it's a

336
00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:25,280
support, you know, an additional
support.

337
00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:28,000
So yeah, the Slack group's
completely free and so is the

338
00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:29,600
series.
And then people share so many

339
00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:33,960
other free resources and support
in the group as well.

340
00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:35,640
And every, you know, the L&D
community.

341
00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:38,960
So giving, I mean, yourself,
right?

342
00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:42,000
You give up, you give up so
much.

343
00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:45,040
I well, you know, you have all
these offerings, you do this

344
00:17:45,040 --> 00:17:49,760
podcast, you give up all your
time to work with new

345
00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:51,560
instruction designers and
support everyone.

346
00:17:51,560 --> 00:17:53,960
So.
So where do you find the time?

347
00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:59,120
Yeah, I have to, you know,
actually I learned from Luke how

348
00:17:59,120 --> 00:18:02,840
to kind of manage everything
when he was doing some of those

349
00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:05,360
virtual working sessions, like
we were recording himself like

350
00:18:05,360 --> 00:18:07,960
with music and stuff and kind of
doing Pomodoro technique.

351
00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:11,800
I kind of took that as I needed
to change my how I'm focusing

352
00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:13,440
myself every time that I'm
working.

353
00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:18,960
So I've consistently been using
Pomodoro and doing tasks, and I

354
00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:22,720
keep 1 task per 25 minutes.
That's it.

355
00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:26,000
If I finish early, then I can
start on the other task, but

356
00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:29,400
otherwise it's 25 minutes.
I give myself at the beginning

357
00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:32,240
of the day, I do a brain dump,
which is something that's

358
00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:36,680
recommended by Mel Robbins, and
then I spend the 1st 25 minutes

359
00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:39,240
of the day going through emails
and organizing myself.

360
00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:41,680
And then it's off to like my top
task.

361
00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:43,440
I just start checking them off
the list.

362
00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:45,600
Is it rewarding you just like
you said?

363
00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:48,320
Then you get to do another path.
Like do you feel good when you

364
00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:50,040
complete the first one?
And then you're like, yes.

365
00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:52,040
Do the next one.
I'm the, I'm that type of

366
00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:54,000
person.
And I was like, oh, I, I have a

367
00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:56,160
checklist.
And when I talked about this

368
00:18:56,160 --> 00:18:58,960
with Ben Irwin too, because he's
a checklist person, I crossed

369
00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:03,040
off the list as just some sort
of motivation there and some

370
00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:05,600
sort of serotonin or something
that's really kind of like when

371
00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:11,160
you go shopping for something,
the dopamine of completing

372
00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:13,840
something is really something
that motivates me.

373
00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:17,440
And I think if it's something
that I'm passionate about,

374
00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:20,680
especially the the idealist that
I share with all the different

375
00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:26,000
books and job boards, it's it's
double dopamine because I'm at

376
00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:27,760
the same time, I love doing this
stuff.

377
00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:29,680
It's like a game to me.
I don't know what it is.

378
00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:33,000
And then I also love the fact
that I'm supporting other people

379
00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:35,680
and their journeys and helping.
Like that's the second piece of

380
00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:40,720
it is like I like if you have a
child or you have from having

381
00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:43,920
students in K12, you don't want
them to make the same mistakes

382
00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:46,760
you did in life.
You want them to have the nice

383
00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:50,920
laid out path so that they can
move to something faster than

384
00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:53,400
you did or avoid this or avoid
that.

385
00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:57,720
So that is the motivation behind
everything that I do.

386
00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:00,240
Yeah, that's neat.
I mean, there's something about

387
00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:02,320
getting to the certain like
illicit level, right.

388
00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:04,680
So there's the gaming of like I
got this thing, I'm checking it

389
00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:05,800
off, I'm getting to the next
level.

390
00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:08,800
But there the reward is that,
you know, we were helping other

391
00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:10,480
help others advantage.
Yeah, which is?

392
00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:12,960
Getting those messages and
LinkedIn, I'm sure you get them

393
00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:15,960
too when people just take time
out of their day.

394
00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:18,120
I'm not going to talk about the
other messages I get because

395
00:20:18,120 --> 00:20:19,360
those are the ones that make me
mad.

396
00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:22,480
But the people that take time in
their day just simply say like,

397
00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:25,960
thank you Nicole.
Thank you, Holly, probably you

398
00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:30,040
do for the community that just
that just reinvigorates me to do

399
00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:32,960
even more and want to want to
give back more because that's

400
00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:36,920
telling me we can't see how
impactful our work is from this

401
00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:40,240
side.
I mean, we know we're we're

402
00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:42,920
aware of it, but I can't see
what it's really doing in the

403
00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:44,640
community.
Like, I don't know, every time

404
00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:48,240
my name is brought up or, you
know, somebody shared the

405
00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:50,320
resource, I can track with
analytics, but I don't know

406
00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:52,120
every time that that's
happening.

407
00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:55,120
I hope it's happening, right?
But when somebody says that,

408
00:20:55,120 --> 00:20:58,600
just that's just, you know,
recognition, that reassurance

409
00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:01,880
that that is in fact happening.
Yeah, and it no matter, it

410
00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:04,480
doesn't matter how many times it
happens, but even someone just

411
00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:07,240
posting and saying thank you for
sharing this resource, I saved

412
00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:09,920
it or any acknowledgement to
something that you put out

413
00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:12,960
there, it kind of gives you a
little boost of we'll keep

414
00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:15,760
putting it out there.
Maybe someone doesn't say thank

415
00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:18,880
you for it that day, but someone
saw it, probably saved it, maybe

416
00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:21,240
they used it.
And so that's what keeps you

417
00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:22,600
going, you know, the
consistency.

418
00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:26,880
So you kind of just keep showing
up and it's just being

419
00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:28,240
passionate.
I think you said that too.

420
00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:30,720
You know, if you really
passionate about your work and

421
00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:34,240
you want to do it even no matter
if there's a like or a kudos at

422
00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:36,480
the end, it doesn't, it doesn't
stop matter.

423
00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:39,880
It doesn't matter because you're
like, I'd do this anyway, right?

424
00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:42,120
Like I'm going to work really
hard to make something

425
00:21:42,120 --> 00:21:44,880
accessible and include people.
And if you're not, if you don't

426
00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:45,880
like it or not, it doesn't
matter.

427
00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:48,640
I'm still going to work really,
really hard to include everyone

428
00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:51,480
as much as I can.
And I mess, you know, and I mess

429
00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:55,000
up often like in just regular
day, like who we are when we're

430
00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:58,960
not on LinkedIn, Like I mess up
like I could, there could be

431
00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:01,120
someone here who's listening,
being like, well, I don't feel

432
00:22:01,120 --> 00:22:03,000
like you included me.
And, and they're upset with

433
00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:05,080
something I did along the way.
And I, and if I did, I, you

434
00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:06,760
know, I don't know that and I'm
sorry.

435
00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:09,080
And we could talk about, you
know, those things, but we're

436
00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:11,240
behind the LinkedIn profile.
We're human.

437
00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:15,960
And, and I can sit on my soapbox
and say, you know, make it

438
00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:19,880
accessible and, and do these
things and, and then still make

439
00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:23,080
mistakes along the way and, and
need to be able to like, own

440
00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:24,200
those like.
Yeah.

441
00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:26,400
Yeah.
And it's OK to make a mistake

442
00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:28,520
because we don't, like I said,
we don't know everything.

443
00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:30,640
And I feel like the audience
really needs to hear that too,

444
00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:33,680
because they're like you and I,
they're transition teachers or

445
00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:35,360
they're going to be transition
teachers.

446
00:22:35,360 --> 00:22:39,280
And they, we've talked about
this before, I've experienced a

447
00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:41,520
lot of trauma coming out of the
classroom, but I feel like

448
00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:45,280
knowing accessibility gives you
a level up on other people,

449
00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:47,680
especially in the corporate
industry, because this is not

450
00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:51,320
something that corporate, I'm
not saying everybody not

451
00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:54,920
necessarily sees as a priority
in their workflows.

452
00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:58,160
So I mean.
Yeah, first for job hunting, you

453
00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:01,440
know, I am noticing and people
are asking, it is coming up and

454
00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:05,640
they're saying I'm seeing more
and more that it says WCAG 2.1

455
00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:10,480
or two point O needs to be
listed in there or you know, ABA

456
00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:12,320
508.
And what does that mean?

457
00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:13,960
What kind of level, what should
I know?

458
00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:17,080
It's being listed more and more.
And the certifications, like

459
00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:19,600
since we talked, I got this, the
CPAC, the core professional

460
00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:22,400
accessibility certification.
And people ask, well, why did

461
00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:24,120
you do that?
Should I go get certifications

462
00:23:24,120 --> 00:23:26,360
around accessibility?
And it's like, it can be helpful

463
00:23:26,360 --> 00:23:29,960
if you're job hunting, if
you're, and not only that, just

464
00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:32,360
studying for the exam and
getting ready for it.

465
00:23:32,360 --> 00:23:35,160
You get a whole new set of
knowledge that some someone else

466
00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:38,360
puts you at an advantage for a
job and and just knowing how to

467
00:23:38,360 --> 00:23:39,720
approach it.
Yeah.

468
00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:41,120
That's a great point.
Yeah.

469
00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:44,920
So I'm assuming that things are
happening around and being

470
00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:47,440
presented in job
responsibilities because of

471
00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:49,960
what's coming in 2026, right?
Yeah.

472
00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:53,320
Can you, can you for the
audience and for myself, because

473
00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:55,800
as much as I have to go back and
read it all the time, can you

474
00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:58,440
tell us a little bit what's
going to be coming down

475
00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:01,960
federally regulated in 2026
around WIC?

476
00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:04,080
I call it Wiccag.
I know you call it Wiccag.

477
00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:05,960
Yeah.
It's WCAB.

478
00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:07,760
It's all it's.
All the same, yeah.

479
00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:08,640
Motto.
Right.

480
00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:12,160
Yeah, yeah.
So tell us what's happening.

481
00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:14,840
Give us the like.
I need the layman's terms.

482
00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:18,320
Sure, sure.
Well, you know so ADA has always

483
00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:20,480
been there's always been a roll
around accessibility.

484
00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:27,320
They decided in 2026, April
2026, there's a compliance date

485
00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:31,560
set that all, all state and
local agencies and that includes

486
00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:34,400
higher Ed and schools, all
public, state and local agencies

487
00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:37,560
have to meet a technical
standard now around accessible

488
00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:42,280
digital accessibility.
So they chose the WUCAG 2.1 AA.

489
00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:46,200
So they're saying in order to be
compliant that you have to meet

490
00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:48,760
those standards and that would
include certain things around

491
00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:52,640
color contrast, certain things
around video description and

492
00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:54,960
transcripts.
And so all the things that we

493
00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:58,000
talk about have a number
attached to it and they have a

494
00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:01,400
level attached to it.
And so you would have to include

495
00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:04,920
those things.
So if you're in 2026, if your

496
00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:09,200
organization supports a
population of 50,000 or more,

497
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:10,760
you know you have your
compliance date.

498
00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:14,360
If you have less than that in
your population that you serve,

499
00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:20,160
it's 2027.
So I did post about this

500
00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:24,760
recently, like an example of if
you're a government agency and

501
00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:29,520
you support the city of
Stillwater, OK, and there's, you

502
00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:33,800
know, 48,000 people in that
community, your compliance date

503
00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:37,000
is April 2027.
But if you're the state of

504
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:40,520
Oklahoma University and you have
the whole state, right, that's

505
00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:42,800
more than 50,000, you should be
compliant.

506
00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:47,680
Your organization needs to be
compliant by April 2026, so

507
00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:51,120
there's certain dates that were
set for compliance and to meet

508
00:25:51,120 --> 00:25:53,040
that technical standard.
Yeah.

509
00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:54,920
So what is that technical
standard?

510
00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:56,320
I'm sure people don't know what
it is.

511
00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:59,000
Yeah.
Well, so that's where, and

512
00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:01,760
that's what I, so I do notice
that's, you know, folks that

513
00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:06,640
come into the course who have a
good understanding of I'm, I

514
00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:08,880
know that I need a, a color
contrast.

515
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:11,880
And so I can go really technical
in this conversation and some

516
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:14,080
people will be right there with
you and go, Oh yeah, 4 to 1

517
00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:16,640
contrast.
I'll use my web aim contrast

518
00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:18,760
color checker.
And I and then some will say,

519
00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:20,680
well, I know there needs to be
contrast, but I don't have a

520
00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:23,640
specific tool to do that.
I don't know the number.

521
00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:27,240
You know that it is 1.4 point,
you know, one under

522
00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:30,480
distinguishable principle and
that that's a level A.

523
00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:34,440
So that's what we, you know,
that's what I try to teach in

524
00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:38,480
the trainings and the course
that it's good to know how to

525
00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:42,800
check color.
This is the level, this is what

526
00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:44,440
you're trying to reach.
And then it give the tools to

527
00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:47,800
how to do it.
So that takes, it takes, it

528
00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:51,080
takes learning, it takes work.
Someone recently posted and

529
00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:52,720
shared with me, it's like
learning a new language.

530
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:55,360
You know, I, I'm, we're, I'm
trying to learn French.

531
00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:57,360
So I took Italian in high
school.

532
00:26:57,360 --> 00:26:58,720
And college because her name is
French.

533
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:02,840
Yeah, so I, I wanted to learn
French.

534
00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:04,520
I'm like, oh, this.
What's it feel like to learn

535
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:07,880
Mookag without knowing OK, right
language?

536
00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:14,440
And it's overwhelming because
when you first open up that

537
00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:16,640
quick reference, whatever,
wherever you go in the

538
00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:20,760
documentation, there's just a
lot of words.

539
00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:25,560
It's a lot of text, so.
I also it's a lot of stuff

540
00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:27,880
people don't understand.
There's a lot of jargon in it.

541
00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:32,720
There's the jargon.
So I, so I do get the feeling of

542
00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:36,760
like sometimes I want to push
people away from the jargon and

543
00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:38,960
give you the plain language.
But then I also don't want you

544
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:41,320
to shy away from some of the
jargon.

545
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:45,560
Some of the jargon is the the
back end to why the screen

546
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:47,680
reader is able to do what it
does.

547
00:27:48,360 --> 00:27:50,840
And if I don't talk about the
technical, if I don't talk about

548
00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:55,280
the jargon, then, you know, if
you're truly going to design for

549
00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:57,960
a screen reader user, there's
certain things you should know

550
00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:00,880
about HTML and semantic coding
that you need to kind of have

551
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:02,800
some knowledge of.
You don't have to go code it.

552
00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:08,160
So, you know, that's, that's
where we have the levels of

553
00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:10,240
folks that are coming in and
saying, OK, great.

554
00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:11,760
What kind of contrast should I
have?

555
00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:14,720
What, what would I use to check?
And then there's someone telling

556
00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:16,520
me like, tell me the exact
level.

557
00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:20,040
Tell me you know what, what's
the number?

558
00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:24,680
Is it a level A, is it a level
AA things like that.

559
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:29,680
So, so there's the technical
standards are are deep and

560
00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:31,920
there's 86 success criteria.
So.

561
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:33,320
That's a lot.
It's a lot.

562
00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:36,680
Yeah.
Well, it's good to spread the

563
00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:39,520
awareness that that's coming.
And I, I can see where people

564
00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:42,000
would be intimidated by that,
but obviously people like you

565
00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:46,360
can help mitigate and help get
prepared for this.

566
00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:50,880
Well, well, in advanced of all
those regulations coming down,

567
00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:54,480
one of the things I was going to
ask you about, and hopefully it

568
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:58,160
didn't slip my brain too much
is, oh gosh, what was I asking

569
00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:00,440
about?
I completely slipped my brain.

570
00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:04,920
It's totally.
Yeah, no.

571
00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:07,720
So getting ready for that was
the question.

572
00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:09,400
Is there some sort of like
checklist?

573
00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:11,080
That's what I was asking.
Is there some sort of like

574
00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:13,240
checklist somewhere that the
government is offering?

575
00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:15,200
I didn't really see one.
Or is there something?

576
00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:18,760
They put out a road map they put
out, but it's not it's I don't,

577
00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:21,560
I, I don't, I wouldn't say to an
instruction designer go go look

578
00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:25,040
at that.
So I mean, I do blog about it.

579
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:29,560
Do you try to put out little
mini things every day?

580
00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:32,000
A little tip, especially
Accessibility Monday of like

581
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:36,120
things you can look for.
We look for the checklist.

582
00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:38,640
I don't know if you can hear
that noise in the background,

583
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:41,520
but it's 4:00 and my husband's
making an espresso.

584
00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:45,520
Oh, got it, got it.
No, it'll be edit that part out.

585
00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:48,120
We were fine with.
We're all at home, we're all

586
00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:50,680
doing our own things.
We probably should have said,

587
00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:53,600
can you not do that while we
were doing that?

588
00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:59,320
So anyway, yeah, so so there's,
there's not necessarily the, the

589
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:01,960
checklist.
We, we know that those checklist

590
00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:03,400
exists and you can start with
those.

591
00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:09,800
But in order to get to that
level of compliance, I would, I

592
00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:13,080
would, maybe we could post some,
some free courses in here, you

593
00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:18,080
know, for folks to, to go
through to help them get started

594
00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:21,960
in some, some checklist we can
provide because there's nothing

595
00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:24,080
really from the government's
perspective right now.

596
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:27,320
Yeah, yeah.
So we're gonna just have to cuz

597
00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:30,040
it's, I think they put this out
there and then it's it's

598
00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:32,920
interpreted by each state like
that kind of like with the how

599
00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:36,800
the states will interpret it.
You know, there's the, the

600
00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:39,680
requirements of like 50,000 and
then below 50,000.

601
00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:44,040
So it's open to interpretation,
but it's not open to not

602
00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:46,800
acknowledging it.
You must acknowledge it and put

603
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:49,520
these things in the play.
Well, yeah.

604
00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:52,280
And I don't know if I would say
it's necessarily open to

605
00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:54,400
interpretation what your
client's date is.

606
00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:59,760
I think, I think people confuse
it so when so I guess that is

607
00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:01,920
the open.
So someone will confuse that and

608
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:06,680
say it incorrectly and say, oh,
you know the number incorrectly,

609
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:08,560
right.
So I guess that was an

610
00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:12,080
interpretation.
I, I guess the big worry or the

611
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:15,320
big concern is that no, you
know, is the DOJ going to

612
00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:17,640
enforce this is.
And how?

613
00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:20,560
About it and how especially with
all the cuts.

614
00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:25,360
So we the accessibility
community expects there to be

615
00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:30,960
more of more of like the private
levels of of like the private of

616
00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:34,480
the businesses taking a bulk of
this work, freelancers like

617
00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:37,360
myself and other people doing a
bulk of this work or consultants

618
00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:39,480
and business owners trying to
help people get ready.

619
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:43,760
But like any anything ADA is
going to we see lawsuits.

620
00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:47,640
So if we have lawsuits we've had
in the past, we may just have

621
00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:53,600
more lawsuits with the standard
attached to the lawsuit the EAA

622
00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:55,760
is taking a little bit more
seriously.

623
00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:58,920
France has started to sue
private businesses because it

624
00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:00,760
doesn't just apply to their
government agencies.

625
00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:01,840
So.
Right.

626
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:06,440
We're seeing it there, yeah.
Yeah, I'm sure you can get a

627
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:08,720
whole conversation about that,
too.

628
00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:11,440
It's almost been.
It's almost been 30 minutes.

629
00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:12,840
Do you believe it?
No.

630
00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:16,640
We're at 29.
Well, we can talk about

631
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:19,600
something more exciting.
No, no, I, no, no.

632
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:23,000
I think that the listeners need
to be aware of this is what's

633
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:25,000
happening.
I know people are talking about

634
00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:27,160
it like something's coming,
something's coming, but they

635
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:28,480
need to have more of an
awareness.

636
00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:31,760
And we'll obviously include in
the show notes what that

637
00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:34,960
information is.
The one thing that I like to

638
00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:37,600
leave the listeners with and we
don't, we don't necessarily have

639
00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:40,320
to end it.
There is, you know, my community

640
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:41,840
has a lot of transition
teachers.

641
00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:44,880
So you were in education for
quite a while, different,

642
00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:48,000
different roles.
What are the top three pieces of

643
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:51,000
advice you could give those
people who are thinking about

644
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:54,040
jumping into something like
being having your own business

645
00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:58,200
or becoming an accessibility
specialist or you know, jumping

646
00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:00,320
into instructional design or
something like that?

647
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:02,840
What are the top three pieces of
advice you give them?

648
00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:08,880
It's, I don't know it's this
advice.

649
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:13,120
It's not as easy as it looks.
That's great advice.

650
00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:19,480
Just scanning, so when you see
profiles on LinkedIn of people

651
00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:22,880
that are, you know, hey, they're
having success, it's not that

652
00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:26,280
easy.
And you know, this is my 24th

653
00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:30,120
year in my career.
And I'd say it took seven years

654
00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:35,040
of real networking, contracting
and consulting outside when I

655
00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:39,000
left my principal job for me to
then walk away and be able to do

656
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:41,680
this fully.
So, and there were a lot of

657
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:43,680
different stops and starts along
the way.

658
00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:48,440
So it wasn't as if, you know, I
had 12 years in classroom, I had

659
00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:53,000
five years in administration.
And when I've always been part

660
00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:56,160
of adult learning at some point
of that, even as a teacher,

661
00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:58,000
right?
So whatever teachers that steps

662
00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:00,080
up, if you're a teacher out
there that steps up and does PD

663
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:02,480
in your school, does PD at your
district, right?

664
00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:04,960
You start there, you start going
to conferences, you start

665
00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:07,800
presenting.
So you know, if you're in year

666
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:11,080
345 and you're like, I'm not in
this for the long haul, right?

667
00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:16,800
So you could start to dip your
toes in the PD space without

668
00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:20,440
jumping to freelance and and
write to this consulting

669
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:22,840
business.
And get the school district to

670
00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:26,320
support you in those efforts.
Yes, and pay for some of your

671
00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:28,920
learning.
I had the ability during Race to

672
00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:36,159
the Top in 2012, 2014, you know,
we here, we had and we had money

673
00:34:36,159 --> 00:34:38,960
to release 30 of us in the
classroom where we went.

674
00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:42,480
I was in the whole state for two
full years getting training, how

675
00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:44,440
to develop professional
development, how to facilitate,

676
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:46,440
how to coach from an
organization out of California,

677
00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:47,800
came to Rhode Island and trained
us.

678
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:51,880
So I, I got out, I got this
amazing professional development

679
00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:52,960
experience.
I was released.

680
00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:54,480
I didn't go to my classroom.
I got in my car.

681
00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:55,920
It was so cool at that time,
right?

682
00:34:56,159 --> 00:34:58,680
I'd go from school to school
state, you know, from city to

683
00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:04,240
city, all across the, the, the
state K12, I got a new network,

684
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:06,880
I got out of my building new
network.

685
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:10,600
So that was one step.
Then administration, I started

686
00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:14,760
networking in different spaces
as, as a principal in leadership

687
00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:17,440
spaces.
And so then there's leadership

688
00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:21,480
outside of education, which then
led to becoming a professional

689
00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:23,800
development director in the
education space.

690
00:35:24,240 --> 00:35:30,440
So my L&D work has always kind
of been adjacent education,

691
00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:32,360
adjacent, right, an element
administrator.

692
00:35:32,720 --> 00:35:35,360
So if you're out there thinking
about how do I, you can mute,

693
00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:39,880
leverage education and leverage
what you do to look for that

694
00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:44,240
kind of work to get that kind of
experience to build up a

695
00:35:44,240 --> 00:35:46,680
network.
So when you do make the leap and

696
00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:49,320
you start dropping seeds and
posting that you're doing this

697
00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:51,920
work, there's people that know
you that you already have

698
00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:54,040
credibility.
That's how it worked for me.

699
00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:56,720
I started posting and people
from other different walks of

700
00:35:56,720 --> 00:36:00,080
life where like we just bought
an LMS Nicole and we need to.

701
00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:03,960
So we didn't even talk about the
LMS thing.

702
00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:09,000
Jesus, we forgot about that.
But so piece of advice is not is

703
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:14,240
not the misconception that it's
easy, Not just just know that we

704
00:36:14,240 --> 00:36:16,880
do over it kind of like
professional athletes do they do

705
00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:20,080
a really good job of making like
it looks easy, but it's not

706
00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:22,920
really that easy.
So be cognizant of that or two

707
00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:25,280
is networking.
Yes, network.

708
00:36:26,240 --> 00:36:28,520
Yes, build up your skill set.
I don't know.

709
00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:31,520
So network we said, we said
networking, we said build up

710
00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:33,600
skill set.
What other advice there's?

711
00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:37,880
There's gotta be a third one.
I can come up with one if you.

712
00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:38,720
Want.
Yeah, go for it.

713
00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:43,040
Yeah, I would say that for
transitioning teachers is to

714
00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:46,080
mine is always honor your
teaching experience when you're

715
00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:48,560
transitioning.
Because I know a lot of teachers

716
00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:52,080
talk to different types of
consultants or professional

717
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:55,080
resume writers that tell them to
Nix that out of their resume.

718
00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:57,800
And I don't like that.
I don't think that's fair

719
00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:01,200
because if you came to me,
Nicole, and you've had about 17,

720
00:37:01,240 --> 00:37:04,920
almost 2 decades in education
and we nixed 20 years of your

721
00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:06,320
professional career.
Why?

722
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:08,560
Why?
Yeah, why do why do we do that?

723
00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:11,640
You know, because they're saying
like people, some companies

724
00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:15,120
specifically say, and I've seen
this in a couple job posts that

725
00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:16,680
they don't hire transitioning
teachers.

726
00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:19,240
No, no, no, no, no.
You want to go to a company that

727
00:37:19,240 --> 00:37:22,240
honors that experience and you
want to know what level you're

728
00:37:22,240 --> 00:37:24,760
coming in at.
So if you have like 4 to 5,

729
00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:27,680
you're probably coming in at an
entry to mid level position when

730
00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:30,760
you're thinking about LD shift.
Beyond that, it's mid and then

731
00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:34,480
it goes to senior and you have
the transferable skills.

732
00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:37,680
So my advice is honor that
teaching experience and do not

733
00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:40,920
ever Nix that from your resume
until it becomes, you know, 10

734
00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:42,920
or 15 years old.
And then you, you're already

735
00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:46,360
well on your way into
transitioning to different L&B

736
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:47,200
roles at that point.
I.

737
00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:49,000
Think that's really strong
advice.

738
00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:52,440
I think you're, you know, you're
giving them strong advice around

739
00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:56,640
not letting go of, of what
created right.

740
00:37:56,640 --> 00:37:58,160
They have this amazing skill
set.

741
00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:01,560
What created their background?
Like why would you let that go?

742
00:38:02,240 --> 00:38:03,400
Right.
And why would it?

743
00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:05,800
You know, the other reason why
you won't let it go is like

744
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:10,160
teaching taught you some taught
you something like what you what

745
00:38:10,240 --> 00:38:11,880
did you enjoy most about the
classroom?

746
00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:14,800
Maybe you can bring that with
you and the other aspects of a

747
00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:16,560
different role like
instructional designer

748
00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:18,880
e-learning development.
And then what you did like maybe

749
00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:20,200
some of the classroom management
stuff.

750
00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:22,880
Maybe you don't want to deal so
much on the front end with

751
00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:25,160
people or parents or
communication and stuff.

752
00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:29,320
And then you can find roles that
you know really suit your

753
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:31,600
personality and fit with what
you really want to do.

754
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:33,280
Yeah.
And that makes sense.

755
00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:35,320
And I know a lot of folks out
there that are trying to get

756
00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:37,640
into teaching that.
I've had years of, you know,

757
00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:41,040
that I was like that There's
folks out there that want to go

758
00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:42,880
the other way.
Surprisingly that I think this

759
00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:44,800
is what the LinkedIn.
We don't talk about that.

760
00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:47,840
We also, this is what the
LinkedIn world is doing.

761
00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:50,280
I think, you know, the, the
social media or the LinkedIn

762
00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:53,080
space is everyone's leaving,
everyone wants to get an LND.

763
00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:56,440
But I have a very good friend of
mine who is, has a science

764
00:38:56,440 --> 00:38:59,520
background, has been a
pharmacist who wants to go into

765
00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:04,120
teaching like, and so I think
there's, you know, there's

766
00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:07,200
nothing, there's nothing wrong
with being an educator.

767
00:39:07,720 --> 00:39:12,000
It's a strong profession and
they've, you've been trained to,

768
00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:16,200
to help folks learn.
You have been trained to help

769
00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:21,000
kids and adults go from, you
know, 1 spectrum to the other

770
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:23,720
spectrum of learning.
You understand designing

771
00:39:23,720 --> 00:39:26,680
learning.
So don't.

772
00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:28,240
Don't.
In a way that other people do

773
00:39:28,240 --> 00:39:33,520
not.
Yes, so it's a strength and and

774
00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:35,800
your your skill set is, is
always there.

775
00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:40,120
So continue to honor it.
I need to know more about you,

776
00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:42,920
so can we OK?
What do you want to know?

777
00:39:43,240 --> 00:39:44,800
We'll take the last three
minutes.

778
00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:46,760
What do you want to know?
I want to know what's up in your

779
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:49,240
world, what's up in your space,
What new, new things are

780
00:39:49,240 --> 00:39:50,520
happening.
Yeah.

781
00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:53,920
Love to know.
Well, obviously it's, it's

782
00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:56,760
probably pretty obvious that I'm
trying to grow this podcast.

783
00:39:56,760 --> 00:39:58,800
It's at, it's at a point where
it needs to expand.

784
00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:01,120
So I'm having experts like
yourself on.

785
00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:03,600
We're releasing 2 episodes per
week now.

786
00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:06,960
We want sponsors.
We want, we want to feature

787
00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:10,000
people on here that are
transitioning out and they need,

788
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:13,200
they need a space to have a
voice and to reach the masses.

789
00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:14,600
So that's one thing that's
happening.

790
00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:18,760
I'm doing more consulting work.
I'm going to be shifting some

791
00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:21,680
things.
And by the time this episode

792
00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:24,720
comes out, so I can say it, I'll
be leaving Yellow Dig full time.

793
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:28,120
I've decided that L&D is where
it's at for me.

794
00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:29,720
I want to be in that space with
people.

795
00:40:29,720 --> 00:40:32,840
So I have a couple contracts,
things going on, brand

796
00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:36,480
ambassadorships, kind of all
that keeping me busy.

797
00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:39,240
But also too, I'm gonna, I'm
gonna, I'm writing a book.

798
00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:40,840
Yeah.
I'm writing a book about

799
00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:43,680
shifting into the space.
And I've interviewed.

800
00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:46,200
At this point, we're almost near
200 episodes.

801
00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:48,640
The people in LND or LND
adjacent.

802
00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:50,400
So I have beyond my own
experience.

803
00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:55,240
I have all this research that I
can tap into and use that in my

804
00:40:55,240 --> 00:40:58,240
book to kind of give people the
real talk behind transitioning

805
00:40:58,240 --> 00:41:00,560
out LND.
Like there are steps and the

806
00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:03,720
steps are not linear, but what
worked best for me or what

807
00:41:03,720 --> 00:41:06,360
worked best for other people
based off of what I heard.

808
00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:10,080
So that's coming out and
hopefully in November of this

809
00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:12,680
year, yeah.
You were putting out, you were

810
00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:15,080
putting out the seat.
I've been wondering because we

811
00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:16,600
were like you were getting a
little bit like the books

812
00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:18,040
coming.
You were dropping some hints

813
00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:21,200
along the way, you know, things,
you know took a slight little

814
00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:22,840
turn for you for a little while
and.

815
00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:25,480
Yeah, I started that yellow dig.
That's what the turn was.

816
00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:27,120
And.
Wasted, right?

817
00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:28,280
You probably walk away with
some.

818
00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:30,040
Really, you know, you get to
take some things with you

819
00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:32,280
because then.
But yeah, your heart's been.

820
00:41:32,360 --> 00:41:34,160
I was like, I hope that book's
still getting written.

821
00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:35,760
That's good.
Yeah, it is.

822
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:41,000
I have the 1st, I have the first
little part done, like the, I

823
00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:43,400
guess you call it the preface,
yeah, preface or whatever.

824
00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:46,440
And then chapter 1 is done and
I'm doing chapter 2 and 3 next

825
00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:49,160
week.
So it's going to be probably 13

826
00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:50,760
chapters because I love Taylor
Swift.

827
00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:53,360
So it's the Easter egg. 13
chapters and favorite number is

828
00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:55,000
13.
Are you self-publishing?

829
00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:56,440
Are you working with someone?
I'm.

830
00:41:56,680 --> 00:42:00,160
Self-publishing it at this
point, Yeah, I don't, you know,

831
00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:02,400
I'm open to help, but I know
Luke.

832
00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:05,120
Luke's like my idol, you know,
I'm going to name drop him all

833
00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:06,880
the time.
He's self published and looking

834
00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:10,080
for his book is gone.
So I'm following his lead and

835
00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:12,760
I'm definitely going to do some
self-publishing.

836
00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:15,840
But if a publisher reaches out
and they're like we want to get

837
00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:19,040
you on board, you know, I just
reached 48,000 followers as of

838
00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:23,920
today, which is July 28th.
So I'm so excited about all the

839
00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:27,680
things to come, but mostly I'm
excited about giving back to the

840
00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:30,560
community.
This is me giving back, and

841
00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:32,760
that's what I love to do.
Yeah, and we need you on big

842
00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:35,400
stages.
Yes.

843
00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:39,520
Just given those big keynotes,
that's where we want to see

844
00:42:39,520 --> 00:42:41,120
Holly.
I don't know if that's on my

845
00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:44,000
bingo card for 2025, but it
might be for 2026.

846
00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:45,320
I appreciate you.
I appreciate.

847
00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:48,480
You get the book out right.
And then when we want to see the

848
00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:50,640
big stages, yeah.
Sounds good.

849
00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:52,880
Hoping.
Well Nicole, where can everybody

850
00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:55,600
chat with you or find you?
Where's the best places for them

851
00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:58,200
to look?
Certainly LinkedIn big big

852
00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:00,000
place.
I spent a lot of time on there.

853
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:03,720
But reach out to me by e-mail or
or direct message me, send my

854
00:43:03,720 --> 00:43:07,840
get over to my website and I'll
spell that out for you.

855
00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:11,520
LETOILE, Hi.
Show notes to.

856
00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:16,760
Education.com and don't hesitate
to join that L&D Slack group.

857
00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:19,200
There's a, there's a join on the
website.

858
00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:21,080
So you don't even have to reach
out to me to do that.

859
00:43:21,080 --> 00:43:23,920
It's free.
Just Join Now and we'll see you

860
00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:27,440
in the Slack group and and
that's a great place to talk.

861
00:43:28,080 --> 00:43:29,360
Awesome.
Well, thank you so much for

862
00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:32,720
coming on again and sharing in
less than 45 minutes all the

863
00:43:32,720 --> 00:43:33,960
things you've been doing in a
year.

864
00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:36,400
Oh gosh.
Yeah, I appreciate that.

865
00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:38,960
It's been a wonderful year and I
just thank you and thanks to

866
00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:40,280
Doctor Luke Hobson.
Thank to you.

867
00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:43,000
You know, I mean, a whole year
has gone by and I really

868
00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:46,320
appreciated everyone's support
as I was getting started and so,

869
00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:50,840
so thank you.
Thanks for spending a few

870
00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:53,160
minutes with Holly.
She knows your podcast queue is

871
00:43:53,160 --> 00:43:55,840
packed.
If today's episode sparked an

872
00:43:55,840 --> 00:44:00,040
idea or gave you that extra
nudge of confidence, tap, follow

873
00:44:00,240 --> 00:44:03,720
or subscribe in your favorite
app so you never miss an episode

874
00:44:03,720 --> 00:44:06,960
of Ed Up L&D.
Dropping a quick rating or

875
00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:10,480
review helps more educators and
learning pros discover the show,

876
00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:12,440
too.
Want to keep the conversation

877
00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:14,720
going?
Connect with Holly on LinkedIn

878
00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:16,320
and share your biggest take
away.

879
00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:19,880
She reads every message.
Until next time, keep learning,

880
00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:22,480
keep leading, and keep believing
in your own story.

881
00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:26,680
Talk soon.
Hi, we're ispring, an

882
00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:29,600
international team of e-learning
enthusiasts who help more than

883
00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:33,120
60,000 clients across the globe
succeed with better online

884
00:44:33,120 --> 00:44:35,560
learning.
Our two flagship solutions are

885
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ispring Suite and ispring Learn
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889
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890
00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:52,520
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