173: Stop Selling Yourself Short: Quantify Your Impact and Land Your Next Role with Josh Czupryk

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Hey, hey, friends, and welcome
to another epic episode of NFL

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and D I'm your host, Holly
Owens, and today's guest has

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been taking over the LinkedIn
world in the best way possible.

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I've been watching, not
stalking.

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I promise the incredible work
he's been doing building one of

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the most impactful K to 12 job
boards out there, sharing no

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fluff advice, and helping
thousands of educators navigate

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what's navigate what's next.
I'm thrilled to welcome Josh

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Zuberk to the show.
You may know him as the creator

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of the K to 12 Job Board Blast,
A resource that's gone from a

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humble Google Doc to a viral
LinkedIn phenomenon with over

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53,000 followers is probably
more than that, and 12,000

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subscribers and counting.
In this episode, Josh keeps it

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100% as we dig into the hard
truths and hopeful turns of

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career transition from burnout
and guilt to resume strategy, AI

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tools, and why it's totally OK
to walk away from the classroom

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and into something that aligns
with your whole self.

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Plus, we talk entrepreneurship,
hiring tips and yes, why your

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resume shouldn't look like a
Canva template exploded.

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Josh brings the fire, the facts,
and the empathy, reminding us

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that teachers absolutely have
what it takes to pivot, build,

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and lead.
Get ready for real talk,

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actionable tips, and the
encouragement you didn't know

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you needed.
Hi, we're Ice Spring, an

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international team of e-learning
enthusiasts who help more than

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Our two flagship solutions are

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your needs best.
Go to www.icebringsolutions.com

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to learn more about us, download
our resources and connect.

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Hello everyone, and welcome to
another fantastic episode of Ed

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Up L&D.
I'm Holly Owens and I'm your

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host and I am super pumped.
So excited for the guests that I

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have here today.
I have it.

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Josh Zubrick, did I say that
right?

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You did and he has entered the
chat.

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Welcome Josh.
I.

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Appreciate the invite.
I'm really.

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Excited to get into all things
I've been watching you, I don't

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want to say stalking you, but
watching you on LinkedIn world

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doing all the amazing things
you're doing with your your K12

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job class, having your business,
all your education experience.

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But before we dive into all
that, tell us your story.

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Who are you?
How did you start?

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You know your career, all the
different things We want to know

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more about you.
Sure.

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So I can typically do this in
one minute or less.

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So I'm going to time myself.
But I was born and raised in the

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Florida Panhandle.
Both of my parents were teachers

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for over 40 years.
My dad is actually in his 70s

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and entering his 47th year this
fall.

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So I got some lifelong
educators.

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Absolutely.
I went to the University of

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Florida.
I did not do anything with

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education.
I went to the College of

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Journalism and I wanted to do
public relations before my

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senior year.
I did an internship on Capitol

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Hill in a Senate office doing
press stuff, and I hated every

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moment of it.
And that really just, like,

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knocked me off my horse.
And so when I got back for my

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senior year, I joked that I went
on a date with a girl, but

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beforehand, she wanted to stop
by and grab pizza from an

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organization called Teach for
America.

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She didn't end up applying.
And I like watched the video

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transparently.
My sister was in Teach for

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America and I had no idea what
my sister was doing.

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And then like watching the
marketing video, I like started

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crying.
It's not like the Sarah

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McLachlan animal one, is it?
I mean, it was close and I just

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was like, well, maybe, you know,
maybe this will give me two

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years, right?
And then I can kind of figure

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out grad school or law school,
you know, like I'll figure

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something out.
So you get in, you do your two

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years doing Teach for America.
For people who aren't familiar,

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they recruit you to do 2 years
in an underserved community

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teaching.
I got my license and then I was

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like, why would I ever not do
education so quick?

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Evolution.
I coached teachers for a few

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years.
I worked for some charter school

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networks doing data.
I actually missed being close to

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the classroom, so I went back to
being an assistant principal,

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quickly rose up, skipped the
principal seat and became a

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principal manager, and then
wrapped up the last nine years

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being some iteration of an
assistant Superintendent, both

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at charter school networks and
then most recently at a school

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district.
So for the 18 years, seen the

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classroom level, seen the
assistant principal level, seen

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the district office level, seen
the senior leader level and

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bring all of that to what I do
right now.

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Very brief origin of the jobs
blast was three years ago.

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About 3 1/2 years ago, I wanted
to leave charter school world

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and I had gotten to the point
love charter schools, so many

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charter schools on my board, big
fan work with a number of them.

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But I had burned out.
And so from the moment I knew I

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wanted to leave to the moment
that I had, my offer to be an

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assistant Superintendent at
Tennessee's number 2 school

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district in the country or in
the state was 4 weeks.

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OK, wow.
And I wasn't.

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I was not alone.
I feel like people sometimes

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move through job searches with
like cohorts of friends that are

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also job searching.
And my friends were taking a lot

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longer.
And when I took a step back and

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realized I am a straight passing
white man and my friends were

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really talented black women, and
I realized there were these

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invisible doors opening up for
me and these invisible kind of

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privilege, right?
But that is the word we use for

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it.
But that was totally working in

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my advantage.
And what I realized was my

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friends didn't have the same
perspective to see what all was

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out there.
Yeah.

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So the first job last was not a
Google Sheet.

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It was a Google Doc where I had
just copied and pasted roles

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from Teach for America in TNTP
and the achievement Network,

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like all these nonprofits, and
was like, hey, just start

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applying here, Right.
And two weeks later, I copied

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and pasted it again.
Two weeks later, I copied.

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And then they would say, can I
share this with somebody?

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September.
It became a spreadsheet March of

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that year.
It became a website and a

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spreadsheet.
So it really did, to your point,

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just organically take off and
now it.

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Went viral.
If you went viral, that's what

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happened.
I went viral.

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So there are 12,500 subscribers,
it's free to subscribe and there

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are 53,000 followers on
LinkedIn.

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So to your point, like word
caught on.

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I love and I love that that
happened for you because it's so

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it's so much valuable
information and like you really

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bring the different, not a
different perspective, but you

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understand K to the 12 and you
understand it in a way that, you

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know, I've been out of the K to
12 game for.

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I don't even want to say because
it's going to date me since

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2011.
And you know, but still the same

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things kind of exist in that
industry, like you're talking

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about burnout and people just
looking to do different things.

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I think one of the things I'll
mention and, you know, ask you

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about is there's often this
sense of guilt shifting to

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something else for transitioning
teachers, you know, maybe in

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combination with that imposter
syndrome.

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And then on top of that, you
have to kind of deal with the

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trauma of leaving the classroom.
I remember my first time out of

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the classroom and I also coached
field hockey is that I was I was

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crying in the fall, I was crying
for field hockey season.

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I missed the I missed the gals,
I missed the students.

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I was like, my God, what that I
do and I make a mistake.

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But one of the things I want to
ask you is like, how do you

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think it's best to deal with all
that or even talk about your own

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experiences coming out of K to
12?

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Yeah.
So first, just directly, I think

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it comes from a sense of
patriarchal sexism.

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I think that we associate guilt
with leaving professions,

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specifically around teaching and
nursing.

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Those are the two that
immediately come to mind.

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And there's a great book called
Teacher Wars, and I would

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encourage everybody to read it.
It's going to.

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Be on the show notes now.
It's and it's, I read it about

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once every year to two years.
And I read it when I was getting

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my masters in 2016 and it blew
my mind.

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But it's essentially about the
history of teaching and the fact

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that we expected women to be
teachers and men to be

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superintendents from like the
1600s.

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And that is the origin of
America.

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We do not give superintendents
and assistants, superintendents,

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guilt for leaving their roles.
And they have higher turnover

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than we do as teachers.
I'm saying we, I started my

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career, I recognize as the
assistant Superintendent.

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I mean, it is that we, we are
part of that community for life,

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honestly.
But we don't give

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superintendents and assistants
superintendents guilt.

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We don't give them guilt when
they leave to go be consultants.

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No one's giving me guilt, not a
single person's giving me guilt

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for going out on my own.
But we do get teachers skill.

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Oh, you should do it for the
kids.

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And I'm not saying that we
aren't right to this profession

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because of a mission driven
foundation, but that is not an

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excuse for gaslighting for poor
conditions or poor pay.

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And so I think until systems
respond with the working

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conditions that will attract and
retain people, no one should

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feel guilt about doing what is
right for them.

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Oh.
My gosh, that's well said.

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And I think you're right.
I totally agree with you.

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I felt so bad.
I felt so bad, like I'd let

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people down and I'd let myself
down because I committed to

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saying that that was what I was
going to do for life.

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And then I there was a shift or
a change and I fell in love with

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Ed tech in training.
So it's what happened and it's

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OK.
You just saved me a bunch of

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money on therapy.
Just pointing that out.

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But I think, I think it's so
important for people to remember

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at the end of the day.
And again, I'm going to date

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myself.
I just turned 40.

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But my parents, you know, but
and so, but our parents

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generation, you know, my parents
have taught for over 40 years

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and they were with the same
district that entire time.

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They also had pensions.
They also had tenure, they had

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the policies and the practices
in place to reward people to

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stay for long extensive periods,
right.

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Districts and charters now have
at will employment.

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There is No 10 year and you have
4 O1 KS typically or much

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smaller pension benefits.
So the financial structures and

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policies that people approach
the teaching physics profession

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with, it's different now.
And so I, I just, whenever

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anybody messages me feeling
shame or guilt, I'm like, your

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employer will feel 0 shame or
guilt about conducting a riff or

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a reduction in force.
And so feel free to be as loyal

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as you feel you ethically and
morally should be.

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And my encouragement is to
always have irons in the fire,

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have an updated resume, and know
where you might go next.

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Yeah, that's great advice.
Absolutely.

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You know, we're seeing a lot of
transitioning teachers coming

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into the L&D industry.
That's like there's a place for

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them in instructional design,
instructional technology, Ed

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tech, customer success, all
those different things.

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What's your take on that?
You, you, you see a lot of

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different jobs, you see a lot of
different postings.

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We all, you know, I do job
postings too.

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But what's your take on like,
how teachers can, you know,

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transition into these roles and
feel comfortable doing so?

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100% So I think you're 100%
right about instructional

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design.
I will say just being really

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timely that because that the
title funding who's been

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suspended or I guess they've
just released it today is the

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22nd rate.
And I, we don't know the status

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of federal funding, but because
we don't know it, neither do

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chief financial officers and
charter school networks and

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school districts and they are
spending significantly less

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money expecting Title 3
reimbursement, which is what you

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give for professional
development than we had before.

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So exactly what you said, Holly,
about customer success in sales.

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I'm seeing more customer success
in sales positions than I am

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instructional design positions.
I'm not seeing a full drop off

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in instructional design, but
revenue generating from per

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pupil funds, right?
Like you're going to need to

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00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:21,480
have some type of a reading or
math program in an elementary

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school classroom for reading
rotations.

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You got to have it.
And if that means you spend per

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pupil money on it, it means you
spend per pupil money.

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The professional development you
have at the beginning of the

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year where you pay somebody to
come in or bring in a nonprofit

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to do an instructional design
review, important.

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00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:40,400
We're not saying it's not
important and we're not saying

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it's not a priority.
But if you only have so many

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dollars and the federal funds
have stopped, it may not be as

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priority.
Yeah, this is this is similar to

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last summer.
I remember pulling the data and

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00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:57,840
I'll say like one thing that I
think makes me and my hero

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00:14:57,840 --> 00:15:01,920
Chelsea, who runs EDSKIP, She
like I, I talk everybody.

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I tell everybody too, I, I've,
I've start from the beginning.

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00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:09,200
I've been in an air with
Chelsea.

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I love, so I tell everybody like
follow.

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So I think what we bring is she
has her PhD, I'm almost wrapped

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up with my EDD and we bring this
data analysis piece of like when

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we're looking at the jobs, it's
we're not just sharing them, but

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00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:24,800
we're like, here are the trends.
Here's what we're seeing with

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salaries.
Here's what we're seeing with

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00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:31,920
postings.
Last June, I saw this spike in

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fundraising and development
roles at nonprofits and at

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00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:38,120
charter school networks.
I mean, we're talking like 30 to

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90 roles in a month.
And I was like, how could that

269
00:15:42,160 --> 00:15:44,920
happen?
Well, the stimulus was ending

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with all of the money that was
going to schools.

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And so people were immediately
replacing them with fundraising

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00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:53,600
teams to replace the stimulus
money, right?

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And I think teachers number one
again, imposter syndrome, doubt

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00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:05,160
themselves.
But you know, you manage 30

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client relationships a year if
you're in elementary school with

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00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:12,000
families and upwards to 120 to
150 in middle or high school

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period, you call them customer
relationships.

278
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If you have them for multiple
years, you have enduring

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00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:22,800
customer relationships.
Multi year two way customer

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relationships.
We have attendance data.

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00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:28,600
If attendance data has gotten
better, you built a strong

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00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:32,440
culture and climate that has
increased this metric.

283
00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:38,200
If you have, you know, growth
data on N.W.A map or I ready or

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00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:41,440
any type of a norm reference
assessment, you can show, hey,

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when I focus and build
instructional design or

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00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:46,600
implement high quality
instructional materials, we see

287
00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:49,240
the X percent of students grow X
percent of way.

288
00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:53,600
You know, but I think teachers
are so shy at times because we

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00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:56,240
are, we drill them in this
country to be shy about

290
00:16:56,240 --> 00:17:01,360
quantifying that the way I feel
like you pivot and translate is

291
00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:05,040
you quantify.
I think that's a great point.

292
00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:08,920
And and also too, I think the
one thing we've also from that

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00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:11,359
perspective in terms like
testing numbers, I taught a

294
00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:14,119
status of course.
So everything that my whole

295
00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:17,960
performance was based off of
like what my students did.

296
00:17:18,319 --> 00:17:21,319
So at the time, I, I really
didn't understand the data and

297
00:17:21,319 --> 00:17:24,319
how important it was to kind of
understand it.

298
00:17:24,319 --> 00:17:26,920
So I think it's an important
point to make that that it's OK

299
00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:31,080
to quantify that and, you know,
use that in your professional

300
00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:34,640
materials. 100%.
If if you are transitioning out

301
00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:37,680
of the classroom into a a
corporate environment per SE,

302
00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:42,200
let's say that you have, you
understand that that data

303
00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:45,840
analytics are important ROI, OK,
Rs all the different things.

304
00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:49,400
So that's a good point.
The biggest thing I always push

305
00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:52,280
people on is some people send me
and I'll periodically say, hey,

306
00:17:52,280 --> 00:17:54,040
send me your resumes.
You've probably seen it on

307
00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:55,840
LinkedIn, right?
I'll look at your resume.

308
00:17:56,720 --> 00:17:58,920
Part of that is a qualitative
analysis for me.

309
00:17:59,120 --> 00:18:01,760
So it works for me.
Like I'm going to give you 15 to

310
00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:04,240
32nd review and very quick high
points.

311
00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:08,600
But what's really helpful is I
start to see trends of okay,

312
00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:11,680
people are leaving out data or
okay, people are like, the

313
00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:13,360
bullet points are way too long,
right?

314
00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:18,160
And so, so instructional design,
iterative processing, right?

315
00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:20,760
Like, let me help people.
Let me take all this

316
00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:24,600
information, boil it down and
give people a cognitive

317
00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:27,080
framework that they can leverage
in order to produce a good

318
00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:28,600
resume coming out of the
classroom.

319
00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:33,640
I've run searches.
I've run 20 searches so far this

320
00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:36,600
year where I am hiring people
for organizations.

321
00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:41,840
When I look at resumes, I have
to see evidence that I can move

322
00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:46,080
you to a phone screen and if you
are not going to provide me

323
00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:49,720
evidence, I don't have the
evidence to say you are able to

324
00:18:49,720 --> 00:18:52,840
do this instructional design or
customer success role.

325
00:18:54,120 --> 00:18:56,560
Bon Jovi, we're not halfway
there and living on a prayer.

326
00:18:57,000 --> 00:18:59,160
That's it.
And so, and I think like just

327
00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:02,040
letting people know you're going
to get 15 to 30 seconds.

328
00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:08,040
I think more, I think more
companies do human screening of

329
00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:11,120
resumes than people realize.
I think people think it's all

330
00:19:11,120 --> 00:19:14,000
AII think AI plays a part.
And I'm sure there are bad

331
00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:17,840
actors, but most places have
committed to you will get seen

332
00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:20,880
by a human, but they have to see
something within 15 to 30

333
00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:25,640
seconds that says I can move you
to the. 15 to 30 seconds I think

334
00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:28,400
I told people like they only
read like the first third of it.

335
00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:33,720
If I can find what I need within
the first third I advance.

336
00:19:34,360 --> 00:19:38,160
I will spend and go through the
whole thing if I can't find it

337
00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:40,480
because I just am like what if
it was in another role?

338
00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:43,000
You know, like.
Because everybody structures it

339
00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:44,720
so differently.
Well, that leads me to the

340
00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:48,440
question then, like if, if
that's your person, people take

341
00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:51,000
15 to 30 seconds to to kind of
look at the resume.

342
00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:54,920
How do people set that up
appropriately to people always

343
00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:56,840
ask me, and I'm sure you get
this too, because you do the

344
00:19:56,840 --> 00:20:00,520
resume reviews.
How do I stand out?

345
00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:03,240
There's thousands and thousands
of Athens.

346
00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:06,920
How do I stand out with this 15
to 30 second thing, which is not

347
00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:09,880
quick if you're doing like a sit
ups or some sort of gender

348
00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:13,920
routine, But if you're you're
looking to, you know, impress

349
00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:16,760
somebody, what is how did they
do that in that?

350
00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:20,480
First off, the field hockey
coach, I appreciate the exercise

351
00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:22,640
for the second one.
Sports.

352
00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:30,440
So it's all sports here. #2 I
think there's a few things I

353
00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:34,840
think I, it's very rare that I
see like the secret job market,

354
00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:36,280
right?
Where like there's a secret role

355
00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:39,080
created or posted for Holly
because we want, you know, like

356
00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:42,880
now I think that people's
networking connections can help

357
00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:48,560
them stand out.
I do think like messaging every

358
00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:53,320
single hiring manager on
LinkedIn is probably more

359
00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:57,360
annoying than it is helpful.
I just want to be transparent

360
00:20:57,360 --> 00:21:01,000
with people, right?
I think replying I'm interested

361
00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:04,400
on somebody's posts that they're
hiring doesn't help.

362
00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:08,240
I think writing a strong,
succinct, clear and concise

363
00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:11,200
resume helps.
And so we'll put it in the show

364
00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:13,400
notes, but I have a free
template that you've probably

365
00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:14,880
seen.
It's definitely going to.

366
00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:17,960
Yep, I've seen all these things.
Take the free template.

367
00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:22,920
Take your resume, put them both
into ChatGPT, grok or clod,

368
00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:27,440
whatever your you know, choice
AI is say take this template,

369
00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:31,400
take what I have translate it
right, Tell me where there are

370
00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:36,200
gaps and it will right.
And then I think that and then

371
00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:38,920
what I would do is I'd take
whatever you have produced at

372
00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:42,120
the end and say now cut the
words down to exactly what is

373
00:21:42,120 --> 00:21:45,000
minimum needed because if
somebody's I need.

374
00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:49,480
To go do this.
But if somebody's eyes can't

375
00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:53,320
glide over your resume and pull
out what they need and and Oh my

376
00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:58,200
gosh, y'all, the formatting in
Europe is expected that you use

377
00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:01,600
a profile picture.
It just is in America, I would

378
00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:05,240
almost say it's not
inappropriate to use a profile

379
00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:09,560
picture, but it's going to cause
more recruiters to say why did

380
00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:12,080
they, you know, like why did
they put a picture or a headshot

381
00:22:12,120 --> 00:22:16,360
on their resume?
So my my advice is don't make it

382
00:22:16,360 --> 00:22:18,400
overly fancy.
Make the content good.

383
00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:20,760
This is just like instructional
design.

384
00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:24,920
I don't need a big publishers
pretty textbook.

385
00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:26,520
See, I didn't want to name a big
publisher there.

386
00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:27,720
I'm just like, let me check
myself.

387
00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:31,040
But I don't need a big
publishers pretty textbook if I

388
00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:34,200
can go on and I'm just going to
give like Eureka Math or

389
00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:36,600
extrajudiciary learnings, open
source, high quality

390
00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:38,680
instruction, right?
I don't need to buy the pretty

391
00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:40,760
textbook.
I can go get really high quality

392
00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:44,440
stuff for free, right?
And same with the recruiter.

393
00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:48,360
I don't need that really pretty
PDF with all the colors.

394
00:22:48,360 --> 00:22:50,720
Like I just need something that
tells me you can do the job.

395
00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:55,240
100% it's like, it's like having
a conversation where you're

396
00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:58,360
having a story being told.
And my grandfather does this.

397
00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:02,480
He tells you every single
solitary detail of the story.

398
00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:05,040
So when I call him every day,
it's 10 to 15 minutes of him

399
00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:07,600
telling me exactly what he did
throughout his day and all the

400
00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:09,120
points of it.
I love him.

401
00:23:09,120 --> 00:23:12,800
He's going to be 85 this week.
Yeah.

402
00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:16,760
But for us, it's like, this is
like, get to the point.

403
00:23:17,120 --> 00:23:19,520
And I also say, too, and I don't
know if you agree with this,

404
00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:22,400
Josh, is that the resume is a
very static document.

405
00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:25,320
It has no personality in it
whatsoever.

406
00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:27,320
It's just, like, boring.
It's cumbersome.

407
00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:30,040
So like what you're saying, the
content has to be, like, what

408
00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:32,320
we're looking for.
But also, too, I would tell

409
00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:35,000
people, you know, working with
clients in the past, like,

410
00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:37,440
record a video about yourself,
like, put a link to a video in

411
00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:38,840
there so they can just, like,
get a little.

412
00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:41,480
Hello.
I'm Holly, you know, I, I do a

413
00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:43,240
podcast and all this different
stuff.

414
00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:45,560
I'm looking for, you know, just
something quick that doesn't

415
00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:49,400
necessarily.
Can 20 to 30 seconds yeah right.

416
00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:53,680
Like and so I did I gave a job
seeker that so the reason the

417
00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:56,520
LinkedIn thing came up is
somebody messaged me a couple

418
00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:59,920
days ago and said am I hoping or
hurting myself by messaging

419
00:23:59,920 --> 00:24:04,160
every hiring manager I said
you're hurting yourself period.

420
00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:09,760
I said, now what you could do is
say, hey, thank you for posting

421
00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:11,080
this.
I applied.

422
00:24:11,120 --> 00:24:14,480
So excited to go through the
process like that is so

423
00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:18,600
important because I very rarely
do I find an organization that

424
00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:20,920
hasn't built some type of a
hiring process.

425
00:24:21,360 --> 00:24:24,320
And if you're saying I want to
skip the line the same way

426
00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:27,080
people would Boo you at Disney
World if you tried to skip the

427
00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:29,280
line, people are going to Boo
you in a Disney World.

428
00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:35,080
I know, I know my audience.
I know my and so I think.

429
00:24:35,120 --> 00:24:38,960
I want a fast pass right now.
Lightning Lightning Lane.

430
00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:42,360
The the lightning lane thing in
it in in it in it.

431
00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:45,320
Is, so it's complex in itself.
Anyways, that's another

432
00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:47,760
conversation.
But it's so presumptuous, right?

433
00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:52,880
And I think it is a turn off for
hiring managers and recruiters,

434
00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:54,440
right?
But here's what you can say.

435
00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:56,520
You can say thank you for
posting this.

436
00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:58,280
I'm so excited.
I applied.

437
00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:00,440
I'm excited to go through the
process.

438
00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:05,560
I'm just messaging so you have
access to my LinkedIn where My

439
00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:08,560
Portfolio is in case you have
any further questions.

440
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:13,240
Yeah, I love that.
Now we'll do it to everybody.

441
00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:15,480
Don't.
No, no, don't.

442
00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:17,280
Yeah, no, no, no, no, I don't.
You know what?

443
00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:20,440
And that's the thing too, is
like there's something to be

444
00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:24,720
said about like the what's in it
for me conversation.

445
00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:28,400
And that that gives them like
you're, you're messaging them,

446
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:30,560
you're giving that you're
creating visibility, you're

447
00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:32,800
making yourself, quote UN quote,
stand out a little bit.

448
00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:35,440
You're also giving them access
to your professional materials.

449
00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:39,160
But the other thing too is I
think that people all too often,

450
00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:43,440
they don't read people's
experiences in their profiles

451
00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:46,120
and they automatically, I'm sure
you've gotten this, they send

452
00:25:46,120 --> 00:25:47,920
you something and they're like,
review this for me.

453
00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:50,040
They say, they don't even say hi
anymore.

454
00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:52,240
There's no pleasantries
whatsoever.

455
00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:56,680
It's just like, do this for me
and I'm like, hi, I'm Holly.

456
00:25:56,680 --> 00:26:01,680
I've been in this game for how
many years I've, you know.

457
00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:03,320
Yeah.
Yeah.

458
00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:07,880
And like, OK, I don't.
I'm happy to do like a free

459
00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:10,960
coffee chat, but you have to pay
me for my services if I'm

460
00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:14,080
offering you some of my time.
I can't stress people enough

461
00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:18,520
that just simply just saying
what you need is not going to

462
00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:21,080
get you anywhere.
It's going to get you a block

463
00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:23,080
and no more.
We're not a connection.

464
00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:27,240
That's 100.
Yeah, I think it is people.

465
00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:32,120
I think society has become so
transactional and we are all so

466
00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:36,680
used to having our own personal
algorithmic feed and everything

467
00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:40,160
is catered to us that we then
forget how to interact with

468
00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:42,320
other humans, especially in a
job search.

469
00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:46,840
So I love your advice and I
really do think it is how can I

470
00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:51,080
offer value in this exact
message and in my resume?

471
00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:54,280
How can I offer the value long
term to this organization?

472
00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:57,520
Yes.
I will also say for people who

473
00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:01,320
are freaking out about only
being at jobs three to four

474
00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:08,000
years, right, that's kind of the
norm now, right?

475
00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:10,800
So that was my other piece of
advice was I get this all the

476
00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:13,520
time of like, should I stay for
10 years?

477
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:16,600
I'm like, I don't know if you
like your job, like if you like

478
00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:18,640
your job and you feel like
you're doing great work, stay

479
00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:20,440
and if you.
Don't like a relationship?

480
00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:23,760
Why are you staying in it?
Just as saying it, I feel like,

481
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:27,560
I feel like there's a lot of
correlation between online

482
00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:30,080
dating and getting jobs today.
I was going to use a Tinder

483
00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:33,160
reference where I'm like, yeah,
all of my friends who share and

484
00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:36,320
I'm like, oh God, that sounds
like think dad, you know, like,

485
00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:41,120
no, like block, block, swipe,
whichever way you're supposed to

486
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:46,360
swipe to get them to go away.
But that's where my fiance and I

487
00:27:46,360 --> 00:27:48,680
met.
I swiped right and I.

488
00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:52,200
Was like, so it's right.
OK, right is good, left is bad.

489
00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:55,760
Don't do left right like people
people don't do things that are

490
00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:58,840
going to make a recruiter or a
hiring manager go left right.

491
00:27:59,880 --> 00:28:03,200
And if you say like review my
resume, I'm your next person.

492
00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:06,640
I, I like see this and again,
people are meaning to be

493
00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:10,440
well-intentioned and people
don't think about this like you,

494
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:13,000
me or Chelsea do, where we're
thinking about it every day.

495
00:28:13,360 --> 00:28:16,040
And so when you jump into the
hiring market, like, please just

496
00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:19,640
take our advice, right?
Humility and value will take you

497
00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:24,720
further than trying to jump the
line or you know, like, and I

498
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:30,560
promise I'll leave with this.
You've mentioned thousands of

499
00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:32,240
applicants.
There are 100%.

500
00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:35,160
I work with clients that truly
get thousands of applicants.

501
00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:39,520
It happens, right?
I'm also working with clients on

502
00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:45,680
how do you post your role in a
way that it gets in front of

503
00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:47,800
your niche audience, right?
Like maybe you're on Chelsea,

504
00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:49,520
maybe you're on.
There's another side of this.

505
00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:54,760
Because I've run a few searches
where as an experiment, I just

506
00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:59,680
put up an ad on LinkedIn and I
got flooded with applicants.

507
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:05,600
But they were 5 to 10% were
actually certified for the role

508
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:08,560
that we were posting 'cause it
was a principal rule, right?

509
00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:14,080
And probably 50%, Holly didn't
have experience at all on K12,

510
00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:15,720
right?
And they were looking for a job.

511
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:19,120
And because there was the quick
apply, we don't need quick

512
00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:21,160
apply, right?
So I've been advising people,

513
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:24,320
especially who are hiring for
remote roles, don't do quick

514
00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:26,880
apply.
Ask 3 to 4 written questions,

515
00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:29,600
right?
Make the transaction cost higher

516
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:32,840
so that way you have a higher
likelihood of getting people who

517
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:35,760
can demonstrate they have the
skills as opposed to people who

518
00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:38,600
are just jumping in.
Yeah, Oh God, that's great

519
00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:40,520
advice for the people who are
posting the jobs too.

520
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:42,600
So you've given the advice for
people who are applying to the

521
00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:44,160
jobs and now people who are
posting the jobs.

522
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:48,160
I think once it, you know, the
reason I jumped into this stuff

523
00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:49,840
is because it feels like a game
to me.

524
00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:53,080
You're up in the 80s and the 90s
with Mario and all that

525
00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:54,440
different stuff.
It feels like I'm trying to

526
00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:55,920
figure out the right formula
here.

527
00:29:56,200 --> 00:30:00,080
And I think people all too often
they, if they run into a block,

528
00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:02,320
they just stop.
Or there.

529
00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:04,120
There, there.
There's some kind of excuse

530
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:06,080
there as to why they're not
going to push forward.

531
00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:09,960
So I think finding the right
formula is something I like to

532
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:12,080
help people do, and I think
that's what you like to do as

533
00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:14,320
well.
So it's good.

534
00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:17,600
That's refreshing to tell.
And especially like the job

535
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:19,600
postings.
I love it when they list what is

536
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:22,320
the interview process like?
Tell me the steps.

537
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:26,000
So I feel like I'm not going to
be in six rounds of interviews.

538
00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:28,640
This happened to me.
They had me on the hook as a

539
00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:31,480
second person and they're
stringing me along and they make

540
00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:33,600
me do a project and then they
tell me I'm not the person.

541
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:37,320
Well, and so I would actually
have shared that in, you know,

542
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:40,000
spoiler alert, if you follow me
on LinkedIn, you know, I'm very

543
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:43,160
openly autistic, right?
Like, and I'm very open about

544
00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:45,440
it.
But when I do a search and when

545
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:49,920
I do a phone screen and say,
hey, welcome to the second round

546
00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:53,680
of the interview process, right?
You're in the phone screen.

547
00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:57,200
The 1st 5 minutes we're going to
talk about the logistics of the

548
00:30:57,200 --> 00:30:58,800
search.
I'm going to give you all of the

549
00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:01,480
dates of each of the rounds.
I'm going to tell you when

550
00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:05,520
you're going to hear by now I
will say I don't give feedback

551
00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:08,240
because quite frankly, my
insurance company said don't

552
00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:10,000
give feedback, right?
And I was like this.

553
00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:15,120
But what I have started doing is
if people are finalists, I'll do

554
00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:18,280
a coffee chat exactly to what
you said, where I'm like, hey,

555
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:21,440
the client, what was somebody
else on this one?

556
00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:24,000
But if you want to chat about
what else is out there,

557
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:26,000
etcetera, right, I'll chat with
you.

558
00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:28,840
Totally optional, right?
Not forced.

559
00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:32,320
But to your point, people, I
feel like shine so much better

560
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:34,360
when you take the cognitive
load.

561
00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:36,560
And again, going back to
instructional design and theory.

562
00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:39,160
But if I can take the cognitive
load off at the beginning of an

563
00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:41,880
interview to tell you exactly
when you're going to hear and

564
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:45,360
how many rounds there are going
to be, you can then shine and

565
00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:48,240
tell me why you're the right fit
and you can go through the

566
00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:51,960
scenarios.
I feel like this whole episode

567
00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:55,040
was just advice.
I don't know if we need to do

568
00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:57,800
the well, actually you're an
entrepreneur.

569
00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:00,760
So there's there's people like
we, we talk a lot about the norm

570
00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:02,960
of transitioning teachers going
into L&D, going into

571
00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:04,720
instructional design, all that,
all that stuff.

572
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:07,760
But what if somebody wants to
start their own business?

573
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:10,280
What if somebody wants to do
what you're doing?

574
00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:12,920
Is there three pieces of advice?
You get people who are like, I

575
00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:14,680
want to do my own thing.
Yeah.

576
00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:18,960
What should they do?
Number one, I will say that I am

577
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:22,120
really lucky that I have a
partner who has a salary because

578
00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:24,880
it is really steady.
And so if you're going to jump

579
00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:27,640
into entrepreneurial life, you
got to understand the ebbs and

580
00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:31,480
flows of cash flow because
you'll run into a lot of cash

581
00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:32,840
and then you'll run into no
cash.

582
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:35,200
It's not salary.
You're not getting the same

583
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:37,840
amount predictably every two
weeks or twice a month.

584
00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:40,160
OK.
So that's number one is if you

585
00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:44,880
can wrap your brain around cash
flow, you're already winning #2

586
00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:47,680
understanding the logistics of
becoming an entrepreneur.

587
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:52,200
So that means understanding
getting A5O1C37, not a 5O1C3

588
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:58,440
getting a 1099, you know, sole
proprietorship LLC set up so

589
00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:02,320
you're able to get paid.
Getting a business banking

590
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:03,920
account.
Don't take checks in your

591
00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:05,480
personal.
So that way if you ever get

592
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:07,800
audited or sued, it goes to the
bank account.

593
00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:11,680
You don't have to get it, but
errors and admissions insurance,

594
00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:14,760
I use The Hartford for that.
Like very easy.

595
00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:17,360
Now they're gonna give you rules
like what I mentioned earlier of

596
00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:22,320
like, yeah, yeah, you may like
at the bottom of my like where

597
00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:24,560
you can add rules.
I had to put a disclaimer like

598
00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:26,840
this does not guarantee you will
hire somebody.

599
00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:28,760
And I was like, really?
And the insurance company was

600
00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:35,240
like, yes, like really, you need
to get an invoicing system, But

601
00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:38,600
they're they're all out there.
I'm super open about it and I'll

602
00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:40,600
try to do a post on LinkedIn.
I think you should I.

603
00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:43,640
Think that'd be very helpful.
I I was checking off the list in

604
00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:45,480
my head that I've done all these
things, but I may have been

605
00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:46,720
missing something.
Who knows?

606
00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:49,960
There's this, there's it's so
convoluted being a small

607
00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:52,720
business owner and trying to
find the resources of where to

608
00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:56,880
do stuff and what's anyways
that's that's a conversation

609
00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:59,440
obviously for another day, but I
appreciate that advice.

610
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:01,120
Just keep it simple.
Make sure you're following the

611
00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:03,720
rules, setting up the the stuff
that you need in order to be

612
00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:06,880
successful in your business.
And you know what teachers, you

613
00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:09,239
can totally do it.
You can totally do it.

614
00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:13,040
There's no like, I think
sometimes teachers are like, I

615
00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:16,080
just I, I can only be a teacher.
That's all I know how to do.

616
00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:18,239
Not true.
There's I will tell you talk.

617
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:20,760
About that.
The last advice he'll give a

618
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:26,000
teacher is when I think about a
senior leadership role, they

619
00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:28,520
would be a wonderful chief
academic officer in a charter

620
00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:30,880
net worth or district.
I'm not saying they would.

621
00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:35,480
They would also be such a good
chief of staff because so many

622
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:38,840
chief of staff roles are GSD
roles, which is what we say get

623
00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:41,760
stuff done.
And there's another S word you

624
00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:44,400
can use.
But like teachers just get stuff

625
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:46,639
done.
They think about what is the

626
00:34:46,639 --> 00:34:49,760
most efficient, lowest
transaction cost, highest value

627
00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:52,520
way that I can just get to this
goal because that's what they do

628
00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:55,080
in the classroom.
And if you want to leave being

629
00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:58,240
able to be again, exactly as you
mentioned, a customer success

630
00:34:58,240 --> 00:35:02,480
person, an instructional design
person and operations person.

631
00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:07,280
When you can speak K12, you have
opened up for that nonprofit or

632
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:10,240
that edtech company to have an
in in the market with the

633
00:35:10,240 --> 00:35:12,000
customers because you speak the
language.

634
00:35:12,240 --> 00:35:14,520
So have confidence I.
Love it.

635
00:35:14,720 --> 00:35:17,680
We're going to end there.
There's going to be everything

636
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:21,200
in the show notes because this
has honestly been a very

637
00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:24,520
enlightening, engaging episode
and and talking with you is just

638
00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:27,000
reaffirming some of the things
that we consistently share out

639
00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:29,520
of LinkedIn world.
And we're not just we're not BS

640
00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:31,200
ING here.
We're really sharing real

641
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:33,520
advice.
So Josh, thank you so much for

642
00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:37,840
coming on the show and sharing
that and everything to find Josh

643
00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:40,840
K to 12 job blasts.
All the different things are all

644
00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:42,760
going to be in the show notes.
So please go there.

645
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:44,440
Please connect with Josh on
LinkedIn.

646
00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:46,560
Can't thank you enough friend
for coming on the show and

647
00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:48,480
chatting with me.
Absolutely, Holly.

648
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:52,040
Thanks for the invite.
Thanks for spending a few

649
00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:54,360
minutes with Holly.
She knows your podcast queue is

650
00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:57,040
packed.
If today's episode sparked an

651
00:35:57,040 --> 00:36:01,240
idea or gave you that extra
nudge of confidence, tap, follow

652
00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:04,920
or subscribe in your favorite
app so you never miss an episode

653
00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:08,200
of Ed Up L&D.
Dropping a quick rating or

654
00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:11,680
review helps more educators and
learning pros discover the show,

655
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:13,640
too.
Want to keep the conversation

656
00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:15,960
going?
Connect with Holly on LinkedIn

657
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:17,520
and share your biggest take
away.

658
00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:21,080
She reads every message.
Until next time, keep learning,

659
00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:23,720
keep leading, and keep believing
in your own story.

660
00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:27,880
Talk soon.
Hi, we're ispring, an

661
00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:30,800
international team of e-learning
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662
00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:34,320
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663
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664
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669
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