170: Don’t Just Apply—Align: What’s Actually Hiring Now (And Why Clarity Matters) with Chelsea Maude Avirett

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Hey everyone, welcome back to
another episode of Ed up LND.

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I'm Holly Owens and I'm your
host, and I'm super excited

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about the conversation that we
had today because I'm joined by

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one of my favorite people to
totally nerd out with on all

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things LND jobs, the amazing
Chelsea Mod Averidge.

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In this episode, Chelsea and I
dive into the evolving landscape

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of learning and development and
the current state of the job

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market.
She shares her incredible

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journey from classroom teacher
to running a powerhouse job

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board, and we get real about
what it takes to make a

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successful career transition.
We cover it all.

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Market saturation, LinkedIn best
practices, the growing overlap

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between instructional design and
other roles, the power of

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networking, and yes, even the
impact of AI on L&D.

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If you're job hunting, pivoting,
or just trying to make sense of

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what's happening in this space,
this episode is packed with

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insights, trends, and honest
advice.

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Let's get into it.
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Hello everyone, and welcome to
another episode of Add Up

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Learning and Development.
My name is Holly Owens and I'm

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your host and I'm super excited
and legit super excited because

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Chelsea Maude Averick's here and
she's been on the show I think

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four or five Times Now, but
she's always coming back with

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new stuff.
So Chelsea, welcome back.

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Thank you, I'm so excited.
I always love having

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conversations with you and the
back and forth and learning from

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you as well.
Yeah, it's, it's our episodes

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are always so much fun and
they're always so engaging.

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Like I learned something from
you every time we talk about

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like the job market and
everything.

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But before we go into all that
fun stuff, I'm really trying to

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resist.
Why don't you tell the audience

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about who you are, what you do
in the L&D space, and just tell

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us, give us the history.
Sure.

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So I'm a former teacher like
most of us, and I also, and

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someone who who really loves
teaching and loves learning.

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And I feel like I'm still able
to do so many of those parts of

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the job that I love to doing as
a teacher.

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I'm still doing now.
And what I'm doing now is I run

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a job board and I help people
find hope that, you know, you

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can continue to do what you love
to.

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Even if you're leaving the
classroom, even if you're moving

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into a corporate job that may be
something that's really

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unfamiliar to you, you can still
find those same through lines

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that you're passionate about.
Now those jobs exist.

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I know where they are and I
share them with you.

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But I also try to provide this
context that you can really, you

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can know what kinds of jobs are
out there, you can know how to

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position yourself and you can
know the challenges that you're

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going to face moving into it.
Because whenever we move from a

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new job to a new job, from a new
career to a newer career, there

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are challenges.
And I think it's really

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important to not just go to a
job board and apply, but go to a

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job board and really apply
coming from a place of clarity

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and coming from a place of I
know what I want to do, I know

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my strengths and I know why I am
doing this.

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That's such an important part of
the process.

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That's great advice.
Like that's just everything that

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you said from you're like
talking about Nishin and talking

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about just coming from a place
like, you know, where you want

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to go.
Like, you know, because all too

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often in Chelsea and you and I
talk about this all the time,

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people come to us and they're
like, well, I want to be an

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instructional designer.
I want to be, you know, a

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marketer.
I want to be this.

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And we're like, well, what area
do you want to be in?

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Like it's such a vast landscape
there.

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So figuring out where you really
want to be is important.

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Having that play when you're
applying to rules is important.

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Yes.
And it's also important because

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as teachers we're used to
juggling all the pieces.

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So while we may only do
curriculum development a couple

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of times a year, we're still
doing that differentiation

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throughout the entire semester.
We're doing that facilitation

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and doing the assessment
regularly.

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And so a lot of times we don't
realize that in the corporate

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world, some of those jobs are
also combined, which is a trend

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we're seeing.
And sometimes they're also, yes,

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it's definitely a trend we're
seeing.

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And sometimes they're more
discreet too.

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I mean, if you're in a large
corporation, you can still have

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one of those jobs where you're
doing one part of that entire

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L&D life cycle, you're doing one
part of it.

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So there's, there's a lot of
opportunities.

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And knowing, knowing what you
thrive in and knowing what parts

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of it you want to do is
essential to really being able

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to successfully transition
because job titles aren't going

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to help you.
Lots of lots of endless

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scrolling is just going to be
exhausting.

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Finding that clarity first means
that you're going to go forward

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with intention and you're going
to be able to make a much more

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efficient and avoid burnout as
you.

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Yeah. 100% people are saying the
job market's saturated.

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And I think there's a couple
different reasons people say

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that probably #1 is because they
don't want other people.

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They want to deter people from
applying to the roles that they

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want to apply for #2 they're
making an observation that's

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only from their personal
experience and not a like an

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overview like you have where you
have that 30,000 foot view, but

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you also have that narrow view
of what's happening in job

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market.
Chelsea is is a job saturated.

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I think I'll go back to like
there are those different,

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different ways of looking at
what saturation means.

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So there have been a lot of
layoffs.

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And so yes, I think there's a
lot of gatekeeping and teachers

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are competitive in this market.
And there's some concern,

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particularly if you have a
master's degree in instructional

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design and a decade of teaching,
which a lot of teachers do,

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you're putting in a competitive
portfolio compared to other

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people.
And that can be scary.

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So I think, yes, some of this
oversaturation narratives coming

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from that.
Some of it is coming though from

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the reality that a remote job is
getting over 1000 applicants.

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And many of those applicants are
going to be well qualified.

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Half of them will be not even
worth looking at because they

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won't match some of the basic
criteria.

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Yeah, the.
Days of like hoping that some

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sort of role, like in a mid
level role where you're not

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qualified for the middle level
role, they're just hiring you on

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a whim and then they'll train
you.

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Those days are.
Yes, those days are disappearing

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from so many industries.
Like my professors when I was in

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grad school were getting jobs in
ways that I couldn't even

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imagine.
Like someone picked up a phone

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and said, hey, I've got somebody
graduated, would you like to

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hire them?
That doesn't exist anymore.

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So, and, and also it's important
to think a lot of times I hear

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this narrative of I want someone
to take a chance on me.

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People take chances on entry
level candidates.

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When we get the skill level that
we all have, people aren't

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taking a chance.
They need to know why you're

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qualified and you are qualified.
So I mean, it's an alignment

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issue.
But going back to the

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saturation, I do think that what
I'm seeing is year over year.

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I'm keeping, I'm posting about
the same number of jobs, but I'm

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having to broaden my sourcing.
So we're seeing some companies,

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we're seeing some pullback in
certain types of roles and I'm

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sure we'll talk about what that
looks like later, but we're

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seeing some of that.
But overall, I think we are

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seeing the, the industry is
solid and learning and

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development is such an essential
part of maintaining a healthy

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corporate environment.
It helps with retention, it

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helps with hiring particularly
younger workers who really want

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to be someplace they can grow.
It's it's something that

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companies that invest in
learning and development get a

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return on that investment.
So overall it's a steady field.

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I don't think you should have
concerns about going into it,

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but there it's not necessarily
going to be.

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Every company is continuing to
hire at the same pace and you

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really do.
I'm having to change my

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sourcing.
And I'm sure you know this too,

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because you you source jobs as
well.

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And we're seeing also this trend
towards specialization.

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So a lot of these companies want
you to be an expert in

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instructional design or learning
and development.

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And oh, by the way, you should
have a nursing degree or one of

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these other industry
credentials, which is why edtech

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is really helpful because we
already have that subject matter

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expertise, not vertical,
vertical being the industry

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jargon there, but the vertical
expertise.

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But it does become harder when
you're competing with somebody

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who has both of those factors.
And you've got to think about,

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well, am I, am I competitive in
this role or do I need to look

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for verticals where I have
volunteer experience, personal

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experience with it, professional
experience, things like that.

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So there are a lot of things to
think about with saturation.

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And I think overall, we often
come from a place of I'm not

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getting interviews, therefore
it's over saturated when

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sometimes what we need to do is
change our strategies, applying

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to jobs that, you know, we're
more closely aligned to.

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And maybe we need to do a little
bit of upskilling.

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Maybe we need to figure out what
our niche is so that we can

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pitch ourselves differently.
I think that's definitely

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becomes a blocker.
When we hear industry experts

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saying that it's saturated, we
just like, well, I give up.

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That's it becomes a mental
blocker.

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And you're not trying to figure
out like what you're saying, how

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to re strategize, how to do
things a little bit differently,

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like where, how are you
approaching the application

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process?
How are you approaching things

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when it comes to your resume,
your portfolio?

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You know what, what makes you a
little bit different than the

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next applicant?
Because everybody's submitting

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these things like is your
LinkedIn updated?

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Is it or is it old?
Like, you know, people, that's

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one thing I keep mentioning to
you and I'm like, it's, it's

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almost like I'm going to say
it's required.

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Now you have to have a LinkedIn.
If you're applying for a job,

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you have to have a LinkedIn.
Like there's no avoiding it

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anymore.
They're gonna ask for your

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LinkedIn page.
Right.

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And often it's there's this red
asterisk that's required,

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required now.
So we're gonna say that that's

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required.
So if you're not doing that and

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or if you have one and you just
did the bare minimum, you're

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probably not going to stand out
there.

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Yeah.
LinkedIn is like your resume.

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Everybody knows you're tailoring
your resume, so you're leaving

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certain things off.
So they go to LinkedIn for two

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reasons.
One is to say, well, what other

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experience do they have?
And if they're finding out about

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new relevant experience, that's
a little weird for them.

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But sometimes, you know, people
do have like part time jobs and

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things like that.
So it's important that they can

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see your full work history.
But the other thing is they want

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to see how you show up
professionally.

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I see a lot of people who are
treating LinkedIn more like a

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social media than like a
professional social media

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environment.
And that doesn't necessarily

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mean they're posting like
pictures of their vacation or

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they're, they're animals, which
I do support posting pictures of

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00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:35,240
animals on LinkedIn, right?
But sometimes it's just like a

228
00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:38,160
comment I've been getting.
And now every time I post, I get

229
00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:40,320
four or five comments that say
I'm interested.

230
00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:42,840
And it's like, what does that
mean?

231
00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:46,320
And I, I really struggle to
reply because I'm just not sure

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00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:49,560
what to say.
And it's, it's that ability to

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00:12:49,560 --> 00:12:52,120
carry on a professional
conversation that people are

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00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:56,360
looking for.
And if you don't have that, if

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00:12:56,360 --> 00:12:58,920
you, if you don't have like you
don't have to be active on

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00:12:58,920 --> 00:13:01,560
LinkedIn, but I think you've got
to be thoughtful about what's

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00:13:01,560 --> 00:13:04,000
going into your profile.
It needs to be updated.

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00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:08,440
And I, I, I mean people look at
it I, every time I interview

239
00:13:08,440 --> 00:13:09,840
someone.
So the first thing I do is I

240
00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:12,120
look at their LinkedIn, I Google
that and I check out their

241
00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:14,480
Facebook.
So locked on your Facebook page.

242
00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:16,240
But I think, I think people
figure that out.

243
00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:20,600
Locking you on all media, social
media platforms.

244
00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:23,880
Exactly, which is why I'm
enjoying Reddit.

245
00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:26,440
People can slide under the radar
on Reddit because you don't

246
00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:28,760
necessarily have.
That question me and like we

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00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:30,920
don't we won't say the dark web,
but you want to be under

248
00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:34,280
definitely under the radar.
Reddit is where it's at, not.

249
00:13:35,560 --> 00:13:39,400
Reddit's a lot of fun lately.
I think it's, I mean you get

250
00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:43,400
this the same kind of mix of
professional engagement and

251
00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:47,520
professional conversation, but
there's less posturing because

252
00:13:47,680 --> 00:13:49,440
it's not as much of A marketing
platform.

253
00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:52,960
Yeah, absolutely.
So what are you seeing in the

254
00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:54,440
data?
You're you're saying that you

255
00:13:54,440 --> 00:13:58,200
have to go to different sources
now and you post great data and

256
00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:01,800
Chelsea sends out an e-mail
every single Saturday, Every

257
00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:04,840
single Saturday, same time.
I wish I had that kind of focus.

258
00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:08,480
But everything will matter.
Yeah, I know.

259
00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:11,560
It's good.
Like building the content takes

260
00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:15,560
takes a little bit of work, but
like, what are you seeing?

261
00:14:15,560 --> 00:14:17,840
What should people be aware of
at this point?

262
00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:20,960
And, well, we can say that we're
in summer 2025, yeah.

263
00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:24,120
Yeah, we're definitely in.
It's 80°.

264
00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:29,440
We're in summer 2025.
So what this has been a really

265
00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:33,520
interesting year.
So I've been doing jobs on some

266
00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:37,760
scale for the last four to five
years, but I've only been doing

267
00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:42,600
it for like 16 months at this
scale of like 500 to 1000 jobs a

268
00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:46,000
month.
And so I have year over year

269
00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:47,640
data.
And one of the things that I'm

270
00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:53,600
noticing is that overall we're
moving a lot more into customer

271
00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:57,400
facing roles in general.
So we're seeing a little bit of

272
00:14:57,400 --> 00:15:01,400
contraction in part time
learning development jobs that

273
00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:04,000
are in schools.
So I call them school based

274
00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:07,640
learning and development jobs
where a company is coming into

275
00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:09,080
the school and doing
professional learning.

276
00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:11,160
Those part time jobs are
disappearing.

277
00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:15,000
The curriculum jobs, which can
sometimes be a good pair with

278
00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:17,600
instructional design because so
much curriculum is digital these

279
00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:20,640
days.
Those jobs are disappearing and

280
00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:23,600
we're seeing that focus shift to
sales and marketing, learning

281
00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:26,000
and development, program project
management.

282
00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:27,600
I love it that I'm ahead of the
game.

283
00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:30,000
Exactly.
Yeah, Yeah, Yeah.

284
00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:34,720
Well, and I think that's so
interesting is that I'm also

285
00:15:34,720 --> 00:15:37,720
seeing some, you've talked about
it recently too, some customer

286
00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:42,400
education roles where you are
using an LMS and you're creating

287
00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:46,120
courses for customers.
And I mean, we've always had

288
00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:49,640
this sales force has had a
really robust certification

289
00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:53,200
program for years now.
But customer education I think

290
00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:55,600
is starting to become a little
bit more mainstream.

291
00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:59,080
And it's a great opportunity for
educators because it's harder to

292
00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:03,040
find.
It's not quite so saturated, but

293
00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:08,360
but it also, you know, again, it
goes back to this larger focus

294
00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:12,240
on revenue generation because in
the tighter economy, we really

295
00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:15,320
have to make sure that the
employees were getting a return

296
00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:19,280
on investment for hiring them.
So learning and development in

297
00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:21,880
companies where it thrives,
they're demonstrating that

298
00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:24,680
impact.
They're saying, you know, we're,

299
00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:28,120
we're retaining employees, we're
speeding up the onboarding

300
00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:32,200
process so they can do what they
do best and learn more faster.

301
00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:34,880
So if you're looking at these
jobs, you want to make sure

302
00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:38,000
you're, you're asking companies,
are you doing these things?

303
00:16:38,880 --> 00:16:41,600
So learning and development,
when it has that strong focus is

304
00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:46,520
doing well marketing sales,
which also brings up the issue

305
00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:50,680
that some learning development
jobs are actually in sales and

306
00:16:50,680 --> 00:16:54,120
marketing where you're doing
customer education, but also

307
00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:57,600
training the enablement
function, sales enablement jobs,

308
00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:01,480
customer success enablement,
customer support enablement, all

309
00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:04,720
of these jobs where you're
training people in the

310
00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:07,319
department how to do that job
better.

311
00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:10,839
These are great opportunities,
particularly if you've done part

312
00:17:10,839 --> 00:17:13,640
time customer support work,
which a lot of educators have

313
00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:16,359
done.
If you've done any kind of

314
00:17:16,359 --> 00:17:19,079
customer facing work, a lot of
times these can be good

315
00:17:19,079 --> 00:17:21,599
transitions.
So again, broadening the scope

316
00:17:21,599 --> 00:17:24,599
of what you think about.
And I think really focusing less

317
00:17:24,599 --> 00:17:27,720
on job titles and more on like
what is this job actually doing?

318
00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:30,960
Because a customer education is
doing the same task, different

319
00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:35,240
audience enablement, similar
tasks, different audience, and

320
00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:38,600
really trying to say how can I
bring in all of the skill sets

321
00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:40,720
that I have and leverage
different skill sets.

322
00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:43,280
And it also means you can
sometimes take a bridge job.

323
00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:46,640
If you're having trouble getting
into L&D, you can take a

324
00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:49,200
customer support job for two
years and move into the training

325
00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:51,520
role and for sales or things
like that.

326
00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:54,800
So it gives you more, more
opportunities, which is great

327
00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:57,160
because if you're looking at
that overall job market trend,

328
00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:00,680
really being able to be flexible
and being able to respond, it's

329
00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:03,440
a teacher superpower and it's
something that I think is

330
00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:06,160
important in the current climate
that we have.

331
00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:10,680
Yeah, I 100 in person last
night.

332
00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:13,920
I'll tell you a little story.
Last night my fiance and I, we

333
00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:16,520
went to like a local restaurant,
right?

334
00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:22,240
And like, we were sitting at the
bar because it was packed and it

335
00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:24,880
this restaurant is really open
4:00 to 9:00.

336
00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:26,360
That's it every day, 4:00 to
9:00.

337
00:18:26,360 --> 00:18:30,560
So five whole hours.
But anyways, we we were talking

338
00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:32,640
to some people who have recently
moved to Wilmington.

339
00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:35,120
They were from Southport, ME.
And, you know, they asked me

340
00:18:35,120 --> 00:18:37,560
what my role was.
And I'm always hesitant.

341
00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:38,920
Now, I'm not saying I'm
hesitant.

342
00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:41,200
I love my role.
But I want to say I'm an

343
00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:44,440
instructional designer because
that's what I've always been.

344
00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:46,440
Yeah.
And now that I'm a director of

345
00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:49,080
growth marketing, I have like
this little challenge like

346
00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:52,240
saying like I'm a director with
marketing because I don't want

347
00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:55,680
to take away from what I've done
in instructional design, like

348
00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:59,200
kind of discredit my reputation.
So that was interesting to me to

349
00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:02,240
think about like the role I'm
using instructional design every

350
00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:04,320
single day in marketing.
Every single day.

351
00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:08,400
You have to know your customers,
you know, you have to know how

352
00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:11,760
to design things for webinars.
I'm still doing trainings and

353
00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:15,320
things like that and developing
courses that we, you know,

354
00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:17,240
yellow dig puts out for people
to take.

355
00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:19,840
Like we have a certification.
So there's so much instructional

356
00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:23,480
design that's on that job.
It's not like it's, it's another

357
00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:27,400
position where it's like there
is not a thing that doesn't

358
00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:29,880
overlap with instructional
design, just like teaching

359
00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:32,960
instructional design overlap or
customer success and

360
00:19:32,960 --> 00:19:36,280
instructional design overlap.
Like I'm finding so much overlap

361
00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:39,120
that like the things that I
needed to be trained on were

362
00:19:39,120 --> 00:19:41,360
more or less the technologies
that were being used in

363
00:19:41,360 --> 00:19:42,920
marketing that I wasn't aware
of.

364
00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:44,600
Not just.
So I feel weird.

365
00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:47,680
I was like, you know, and my
fiance, I told this lady I was a

366
00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:49,680
director of marketing.
I'm like, but I'm not, I'm an

367
00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:54,560
instructional designer.
So just a little story, you

368
00:19:54,560 --> 00:19:58,920
know, kind of getting that like,
yeah, these things overlap and

369
00:19:58,920 --> 00:20:02,280
you're not just you're not just
pigeonholed into these things

370
00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:04,040
and this is all you're going to
do for the rest of your life or

371
00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:05,320
this is all you're going to do
in this role.

372
00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:07,040
It's like.
It's very open.

373
00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:10,720
Yes, and that's one thing like I
do break jobs into job

374
00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:14,880
categories, but so frequently
I'm like this role fits into

375
00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:17,640
this job category.
Like program management is a

376
00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:20,800
great example, but 50% of the
job is training.

377
00:20:21,360 --> 00:20:23,280
So maybe that should be in
learning and development.

378
00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:25,200
You know it's.
It's.

379
00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:28,920
One right.
And I again, I think if you're

380
00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:32,720
interested in this, learn what
your skill set is and then look

381
00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:37,640
broadly because you're gonna see
so many of the elements of what

382
00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:40,960
you do on a regular basis show
up in a lot of different job

383
00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:43,280
categories exactly like what
you're talking about.

384
00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:47,360
We we think of marketing as
social media, but marketing?

385
00:20:47,360 --> 00:20:52,400
Is also way more customers.
And teaching and coaching those

386
00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:56,080
customers, particularly growth
marketing because how do you

387
00:20:56,080 --> 00:20:59,200
keep customers around?
Well, you engage them, you help

388
00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:01,360
them learn and feel excited
about the product.

389
00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:06,720
So absolutely don't rely on job
categories, job titles.

390
00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:10,560
Really find what you do well and
then find the jobs that fit and.

391
00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:13,920
Like we continue to preach it's
different everywhere, like what

392
00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:16,080
growth marketing looks like
yellow, like a yellow Dick

393
00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:19,360
doesn't look the same at another
Ed tech company or like a big

394
00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:22,320
like a Google or Amazon, it
doesn't look the same.

395
00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:24,560
But it should.
It should in the.

396
00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:27,800
Future 100% should, but it
doesn't, not at this point.

397
00:21:28,120 --> 00:21:32,160
I'm wondering if, and I want to
ask you another question before

398
00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:35,000
I jump into all this stuff.
I'm wondering if like things

399
00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:39,280
like AI are going to make things
more uniform for us again, like

400
00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:44,440
like how it's just going to
bring together some of the, the

401
00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:47,880
main components of the role and
how we're using that tool.

402
00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:50,160
And that's just going to be
like, this is the same

403
00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:52,960
everywhere.
Like you have to use AI to, you

404
00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:56,440
know, generate scripts or
generate job descriptions or

405
00:21:56,440 --> 00:21:58,320
whatever.
You have to do generate

406
00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:01,240
trainings, that kind of stuff.
I'm just, I've, I've been

407
00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:03,400
wondering like, is that gonna
change?

408
00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:06,440
Maybe it makes things more
uniform across the different

409
00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:09,080
industries.
Well, in many ways too.

410
00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:11,800
Some of those things are already
standardized, like job

411
00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:13,360
descriptions.
I mean, how many?

412
00:22:13,360 --> 00:22:16,320
There's a boiler plate job
description for all of these job

413
00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:17,960
titles.
You can tell.

414
00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:20,560
You can tell when somebody
actually wrote a job description

415
00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:22,680
for the first time.
You're like, oh, this is new.

416
00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:26,680
I like it.
It tells you what the job is

417
00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:29,240
actually and they thought about
what the job is.

418
00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:33,240
And so I, I think we already
have some of that, which is

419
00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:39,000
where AI feels appealing because
if we're just sort of doing the

420
00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:41,880
same thing over and over again,
why not automate that so that we

421
00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:45,080
can put our time into doing
something different, improving

422
00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:48,040
our candidate process.
You know, that that can be

423
00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:50,560
something where, you know, if we
spend more time interviewing

424
00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:54,200
people or finding some better
ways to actually assess their

425
00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:58,120
skills and not doing the boring
stuff, that's a plus.

426
00:22:58,120 --> 00:23:02,000
That's an absolute plus.
I don't it's interesting to see

427
00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:06,320
how fast AI is going because
I've we've gone from AI never

428
00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:09,040
showing up in job descriptions.
So now it's starting to show up

429
00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:12,400
in preferred preferred skills
quite frequently required.

430
00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:16,360
Yep, it's so that's the next
step is when it's required and I

431
00:23:16,360 --> 00:23:20,880
don't see that super frequently,
but I am starting to see it and

432
00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:24,560
not enough that I would actually
be like in my summaries.

433
00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:26,280
You need to have AI for this
but.

434
00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:29,240
Definitely you have an awareness
100%.

435
00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:32,240
You need to have an awareness.
You need to know how it's being

436
00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:35,000
used in your field.
You need to know what its

437
00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:37,160
strengths are.
You know, what is it actually

438
00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:39,240
good for?
What is it not good for?

439
00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:41,000
And the ability to leverage
that.

440
00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:46,800
Because yeah, the people who
know how to prompt AI to do the

441
00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:50,520
things they need to do are going
to be the people who are getting

442
00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:53,760
employed faster and who are
getting promoted and not getting

443
00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:56,200
laid off because their job could
be done by AI.

444
00:23:56,800 --> 00:24:00,680
Yeah, yeah, Question of the day.
And I know you get this in your

445
00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:03,960
inbox a million times like I do,
or when you're talking to

446
00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:08,520
people.
What do I do to stand out?

447
00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:11,040
Yeah.
What do I do?

448
00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:15,240
What is the magic formula?
What do we do?

449
00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:17,760
Yes.
So that's that's tricky.

450
00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:19,720
I think there are a couple of
different ways we can answer

451
00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:21,400
this.
So let's start off just thinking

452
00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:23,640
about like the resume and the
cover letter.

453
00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:28,760
And we, we talked a little bit
about how L&D is consolidating.

454
00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:33,160
And so rules that used to be
distinct are now being collapsed

455
00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:36,880
for various reasons, some of
them honestly very good reasons,

456
00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:42,120
some of them bottom line issues.
So one of the things I think

457
00:24:42,120 --> 00:24:44,680
you've got to do is show the
breadth of your experience.

458
00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:46,720
As teachers, we're so used to
doing that.

459
00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:50,200
We, we do that whole life cycle.
So really making sure your

460
00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:52,960
resume demonstrates each section
of that.

461
00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:56,480
I also see a lot of teachers who
are still focused on their

462
00:24:56,480 --> 00:25:00,800
classroom and a lot of times
we're doing the same work

463
00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:03,440
outside of our classroom.
So think about that needs

464
00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:04,880
assessment.
You were talking about how you

465
00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:09,040
do needs assessment and
evaluating even in in your role

466
00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:16,040
on and we do it in every role,
but in as we're teaching, one of

467
00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:18,760
the things that we often say is,
oh, I assess the needs of my

468
00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:21,360
students.
I'm pulling data, but we also

469
00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:24,920
almost every single teacher is
working in a department or

470
00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:27,040
you're doing that with your
department colleagues and then

471
00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:30,360
you're making, what are these
larger scale department changes

472
00:25:30,360 --> 00:25:33,600
we need to make.
So whenever you have a choice

473
00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:38,120
between describing something
that you do in your classroom or

474
00:25:38,120 --> 00:25:42,440
describing something you do with
or for adults, choose the second

475
00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:45,320
piece because that's going to be
closer to what you do in an

476
00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:46,840
instructional design
environment.

477
00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:50,120
You're having to suddenly
evaluate students that you don't

478
00:25:50,120 --> 00:25:52,360
know and see every day.
So you're having to ask

479
00:25:52,360 --> 00:25:55,760
different questions.
And that process is really

480
00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:59,880
important because we forget that
even though we're doing the same

481
00:25:59,880 --> 00:26:02,200
process, we're doing it in a
different way and we have to

482
00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:06,600
think about what that changes.
I mean, it is a lot harder to

483
00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:10,160
gather data from adults that you
see or if you're working in a

484
00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:12,280
remote environment that you
might be emailing.

485
00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:15,480
So thinking a little bit about
how can you show that you're

486
00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:17,280
doing that part of the job as
well?

487
00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:19,760
So not just the functional
skill, but who you're doing it

488
00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:21,800
with.
So that's one thing I would say.

489
00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:27,360
Then the other thing is the
opposite is I would also show

490
00:26:27,360 --> 00:26:29,160
some of your where you're
niching down.

491
00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:33,040
So we just talked about AI.
What are the other preferred

492
00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:35,200
skills you're seeing in job
descriptions that you're like,

493
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:38,480
that sounds like fun.
Go and learn that and then use

494
00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:44,040
it and show how you're actually
demonstrating that skill on a

495
00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:47,240
regular basis and make sure
those are in your resume in your

496
00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:49,800
bullet points.
Don't worry about trying to say

497
00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:53,520
this is my job description.
Say what you're doing that's

498
00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:56,120
relevant for the job.
So that's that's kind of like

499
00:26:56,120 --> 00:26:59,560
the basic stuff.
I would also, we haven't talked

500
00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:04,680
about portfolios yet and I think
there's a lot of portfolios are

501
00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:10,160
becoming very, very similar.
There's, there's the style and

502
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:11,920
everybody is doing the same
style.

503
00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:16,880
They look great, they look
great, but they are really one

504
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:18,640
note.
There's so much emphasis on

505
00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:21,840
training and specifically
training through an articulate

506
00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:27,760
program or rise.
And one of the things that I

507
00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:32,200
think teachers are so good at is
assessing what the right

508
00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:36,880
learning intervention is.
We don't always go to a

509
00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:40,840
classroom training so to speak.
You know, sometimes we break

510
00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:43,720
kids up into groups, sometimes
we have them do our project,

511
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:48,000
sometimes we do 20 different.
We usually have a toolbox of

512
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:51,240
like 20 different things we do.
And so thinking about how can

513
00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:54,680
you show that in your portfolio?
And I think one thing that is a

514
00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:58,280
bit underrated and L&D are job
aids.

515
00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:01,080
I think professionals who are
working in instructional design

516
00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:03,880
are using these all the time.
But we're talking so much about

517
00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:06,800
articulate courses that we don't
really talk about how often

518
00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:09,600
we're doing something like
building a job aid.

519
00:28:10,120 --> 00:28:13,880
And so I would really encourage
people to think about that

520
00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:17,520
portfolio more broadly than just
the training piece of it.

521
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:22,800
What are other ways that you
help somebody solve a problem

522
00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:28,720
and show that?
And I think it really shows your

523
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:31,880
flexibility and it shows your
understanding of adult learning

524
00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:35,840
methodologies and that you can
really navigate a lot of

525
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:39,320
different environments and not
just let me build a training for

526
00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:42,440
you because that's a lot of time
and money for the company.

527
00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:46,840
And I mean, I've got a couple of
others.

528
00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:50,280
I think networking is its own is
its own topic, but I think

529
00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:52,800
networking, networking is such a
piece of this.

530
00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:55,800
So yeah, I'll talk about
networking.

531
00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:58,480
I actually had a great
experience.

532
00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:01,200
I'm sitting here listening
because I love listening to you

533
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:03,120
talk because I always learn
something.

534
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:05,640
Yeah, I'm going to agree with
you on network like people.

535
00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:09,320
I think I was just, you know,
like saying that the LinkedIn is

536
00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:11,560
required, but the networking is
right behind it.

537
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:15,240
Like even though we're in this
digital space, it's still very

538
00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:17,480
old school.
Who you know, who you know that

539
00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:21,400
could maybe introduce you to
somebody within the position or

540
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:23,800
the industry or the company
you're going to look for, who

541
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:27,000
knows who.
That's the whole thing.

542
00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:29,880
Right.
And so going to conferences, you

543
00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:32,800
do conferences a lot of times
there's some major learning and

544
00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:35,720
development conferences.
You've got a great handout that

545
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:38,520
lists a lot of them.
Conferences are great.

546
00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:43,040
I think also looking at your
local learning and development.

547
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:45,480
I'm being very broad there
chapters.

548
00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:50,680
So it could be ATD, but it could
also be I I spoke recently at

549
00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:55,040
packed Minnesota and it's a
training, it's a local training

550
00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:58,040
organization and they were
fabulous.

551
00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:00,160
They're they're actually
welcoming teachers.

552
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:03,000
They have a special teacher
membership for some of the

553
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:07,000
remote opportunities, but it was
just such a warm and welcoming

554
00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:10,000
environment and they were
sitting there giving people

555
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:13,560
advice and it was just really
collegial.

556
00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:16,120
And I think that's what learning
development does so well is

557
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:19,640
build those learning communities
and professional development

558
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:22,600
spaces.
And so I would say find what

559
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:24,520
that is locally.
Sometimes you're gonna see it

560
00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:27,080
online.
If you're in a community like me

561
00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:29,480
where it's a 90 minute drive to
get to all the professional

562
00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:32,080
networking events, you won't.
Believe it, but it's like mines

563
00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:34,400
in Raleigh.
I think it's that's two hours.

564
00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:36,800
It's just even worth.
Yeah.

565
00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:41,600
Flemington's a major city.
Yeah, no, we don't have in the

566
00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:44,360
local ATD.
It's in, it's in, it's in the

567
00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:47,080
center of the state.
So, yeah, I definitely agree

568
00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:49,880
with you too on those.
Those ATD things I I enjoyed,

569
00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:52,080
like when I lived in South
Carolina, attending those events

570
00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:54,040
and working with that group,
they had a really great group.

571
00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:57,840
That's nice and I know it.
I don't know how it works in

572
00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:00,800
every state, but here in Maine
they do a lot of remote events

573
00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:03,680
just because we're Maine, we
where a million people spread

574
00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:07,720
out very, very far.
But so there, it may be that way

575
00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:11,880
in other states, but yeah, find,
find your tribe locally because

576
00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:15,720
it means that you're going to be
talking to people who are doing

577
00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:19,440
the profession on a daily basis.
And that's just going to give

578
00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:22,200
you so much knowledge of the
field.

579
00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:25,400
And it's going to give you such
an ability to translate your

580
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:28,640
skills more effectively.
And also networking.

581
00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:30,240
That's how a lot of people find
jobs.

582
00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:33,960
You know, they they say, oh, by
the way, did you hear about that

583
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:35,880
job?
No, I didn't hear about that

584
00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:37,360
job.
Or did you hear about that job

585
00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:38,920
board?
I mean, a lot of people come to

586
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:41,080
my job board because somebody
else told them about it.

587
00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:46,640
So, so these these communities
that we build and the resources

588
00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:48,720
that we share within them are
really valuable.

589
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:52,160
So you need to find what that
resource is in your, your neck

590
00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:53,840
of the woods.
And you want to do it locally

591
00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:57,480
too, because a lot of people
transition to hybrid and in

592
00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:01,080
person local jobs people.
Prefer that, yeah, I prefer

593
00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:03,840
remote, but there's lots of
people who prefer to go into the

594
00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:06,520
office one or two days a week or
more and just be with

595
00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:08,640
colleagues.
And so I totally get that and.

596
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:10,320
Right.
Yeah.

597
00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:13,280
So I think there are a lot of a
lot of opportunities for people

598
00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:18,280
to think locally even even for
remote jobs because again, the

599
00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:21,440
L&D community is a small tight
network.

600
00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:24,720
So yeah, you know about the
local jobs, you know about the

601
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:27,720
remote jobs too, so.
Yeah, absolutely.

602
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:31,720
Oh my goodness.
It's gone by too fast, OK?

603
00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:34,480
Oh my goodness, I just looked at
the clock too.

604
00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:39,640
I was like, oh, we're about 15
minutes and no, we're about 30

605
00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:44,920
minutes and already, well, what
I'll say is that obviously you

606
00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:47,840
need to continue to come back
and people need to follow you

607
00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:49,800
out of LinkedIn World and all
the data you're sharing and sign

608
00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:52,960
up for Skip, do all those things
and every, everything will be in

609
00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:55,600
the show notes.
But like any final thoughts

610
00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:58,440
about what's going to be
happening in the next few

611
00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:02,200
months, like in the next quarter
as we you know, Q3 and Q4 as we

612
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:04,120
begin to move towards the end of
the year?

613
00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:07,920
Yeah.
So in Edtech we do see a shift

614
00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:11,560
away from those school based
jobs because obviously the

615
00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:14,480
school, school year has started.
So those are really quarter one,

616
00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:20,080
quarter 2, they trail off by the
end of the summer, but in the

617
00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:23,360
non Ed tech, well, so in Ed
tech, when they're internal

618
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:27,080
departments, those are going to
continue to be consistent

619
00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:29,600
throughout the year.
And I'm also doing a lot more

620
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:33,280
sourcing outside of Ed tech as
well because so many people have

621
00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:36,440
been like, you know, so long as
it doesn't require me to have a

622
00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:40,480
nursing degree, I'm interested.
Nursing degree is a stretch.

623
00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:45,240
So what I would say is I'm
really expecting to continue to

624
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:49,000
see a similar number of these
non school based learning and

625
00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:52,080
development jobs.
I think again there there are

626
00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:53,760
larger questions about the
economy.

627
00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:56,280
I think that there is a lot of
uncertainty.

628
00:33:56,560 --> 00:34:00,520
We saw particularly in March and
April of last year a pullback

629
00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:03,480
and I think quarter two people
picked back up.

630
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:05,280
They're like OK, I'm feeling a
little more comfortable.

631
00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:08,719
So I think that's my only
concern is that we don't know

632
00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:10,440
where the overall economy is
going.

633
00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:14,400
I think if things stay the way
they're they're going, we're

634
00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:16,840
going to be fine.
But it's that uncertainty.

635
00:34:17,199 --> 00:34:18,719
That happens.
Yeah.

636
00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:23,880
But I do think again, if if
you're applying to jobs, look

637
00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:27,880
for those companies that are
really, they understand the

638
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:29,719
value that they're getting out.
If they're learning a

639
00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:32,199
development job, it's going to
make it a little bit more future

640
00:34:32,199 --> 00:34:33,800
proof.
Take a look at those marketing

641
00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:36,880
jobs that are customer education
focused and really think about

642
00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:38,840
that give you.
Advice, too, about jumping into

643
00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:42,400
marketing.
Excellent, we should do a

644
00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:44,440
webinar on that.
Yes, we should.

645
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:46,320
Yes, we should.
Oh, well.

646
00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:48,920
Well, Chelsea, it's always a
pleasure having you on.

647
00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:52,719
I could talk to you all day.
I'm like, you know, last episode

648
00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:54,520
I learned about the knockout
questions.

649
00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:57,320
This one I'm learning about,
like how you're sourcing on

650
00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:00,320
outside and how people are
starting to see these different

651
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:05,040
roles that may or may not fit
into the little box of L&D as

652
00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:08,080
actual roles that they can they
can jump into.

653
00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:11,120
And you know, it's all about
just figuring out where you want

654
00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:12,240
to go.
And.

655
00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:14,160
Simple terms, where do you want
to go?

656
00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:16,520
So thanks so much for coming on
again.

657
00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:19,600
Thank you again for having me, I
always love love seeing you

658
00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:21,240
there.
Though.

659
00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:26,440
Hi, we're I Spring, an
international team of e-learning

660
00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:29,720
enthusiasts who help more than
60,000 clients across the globe

661
00:35:29,720 --> 00:35:31,840
succeed with better online
learning.

662
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:35,760
Our two flagship solutions are I
Spring Suite and I Spring Learn

663
00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:38,894
LMS Ispring Suite is an
intuitive, all in

664
00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:56,080
Go to www.ispringsolutions.com
to learn more about us and

665
00:35:56,080 --> 00:35:58,760
connect.
Thanks for spending a few

666
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:01,080
minutes with Holly.
She knows your podcast queue is

667
00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:03,760
packed.
If today's episode sparked an

668
00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:07,960
idea or gave you that extra
nudge of confidence, tap, follow

669
00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:11,640
or subscribe in your favorite
app so you never miss an episode

670
00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:14,920
of Ed Up L&D.
Dropping a quick rating or

671
00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:18,400
review helps more educators and
learning pros discover the show,

672
00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:20,360
too.
Want to keep the conversation

673
00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:22,680
going?
Connect with Holly on LinkedIn

674
00:36:22,720 --> 00:36:24,240
and share your biggest take
away.

675
00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:27,800
She reads every message.
Until next time, keep learning,

676
00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:30,440
keep leading, and keep believing
in your own story.

677
00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:31,400
Talk soon.