162: Action First, Always: Karl Kapp’s Blueprint for Engaged Learning

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Welcome back to the Add Up
Learning and Development

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podcast, and welcome to Season
6.

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I'm your host, Holly Owens, and
I could not be more excited to

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kick things off with the true
legend in the learning space,

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Doctor Carl Kapp.
Carl has been inspiring

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educators, instructional
designers, and learning

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professionals for decades.
And in this episode, he takes us

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all the way back to where it
started as an instructional

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design intern in the 90s.
His journey is a powerful

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reminder that everyone starts
somewhere, and through action,

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curiosity, and community, we can
all shape impactful careers in

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L&D.
We dive into his philosophy of

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action first learning, exploring
why bridging, why bridging

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theory and practice matters more
than ever, and talk about the

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importance of saying yes to
opportunities, even the

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unexpected ones.
This conversation is packed with

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insight, warmth, and real talk
that will resonate whether

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you're just starting out or have
been in the field for years.

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Let's dive into this inspiring
episode and kick off season 6.

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Here's my conversation with
Doctor Carl Capp.

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Hi, we're ispring, an
international team of e-learning

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enthusiasts who help more than
60,000 clients across the globe

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succeed with better online
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Our two flagship solutions are
ispring Suite and ispring Learn

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Ispring Suite is an intuitive,

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platform for onboarding,
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teams.
We also provide tons of free

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resources for aspiring and
experienced e-learning

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professionals, conduct weekly
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experts, and organize annual
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challenges, and championships.
We'd be happy to get to know you

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and pick a solution that fits
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Go to www.icebringsolutions.com
to learn more about us, download

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our resources and connect.
Hello everyone, and welcome to

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another fantastic episode of Add
Up Learning and Development.

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You probably hear the excitement
of my voice because I'm super

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excited to have this guest.
He's famous.

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We were just talking about it.
He's a big deal.

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He's a very humble person.
You probably won't think that

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he's an influencer in the LND
space and all kinds of different

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things.
Carl Capp is here.

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Carl, welcome to the show.
Holly, thanks.

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It's fantastic to be here and I
always joke around, you know, it

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might be famous, but nobody buys
AT shirt so.

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Yeah.
How famous?

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Really.
Yeah.

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Well, you know, I follow.
I followed your work for a

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really long time.
So I'm so excited to get into

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some questions, some burning
questions that I've had.

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But first, for people who don't
know you, tell us a little bit

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about your journey, what you
currently do, where you started

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and, and all the different
things that you've just, I mean,

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I'll, I'll stop, I'll stop Band
Girling.

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Just go ahead and tell us your
story, please.

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So I got started way back, like
in around 1997, I got a job as

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an intern at this company that
did this thing called

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instructional technology.
And I'm like, what is

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instructional technology?
And that started way before when

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that when I was young, I did, I
was in a little theater and we

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were in a video, a safety video
called Willy Whistle, like

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learning how to cross the
street.

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And this company had produced
that video for safety.

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And, and so I got an internship
there and I'm like, what are you

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guys doing?
They're like, Oh, we do

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instructional technology.
I'm like, Oh my gosh, this is so

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cool.
It's a little bit of, I had an

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English background, teaching
background.

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So it was a little bit of that.
I almost had a psych minor.

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So it was a little bit of that.
I'm like, this is great.

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So I was already planning to go
to the University of Pittsburgh

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for counseling, and I'm like,
yeah, this sounds so much more

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fun than counseling.
And so I changed my major, my

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graduate program, which was
apparently a big deal, but I did

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it anyway.
And then I got to University of

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Pittsburgh was taking classes
and then I also position to take

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classes in the Business School,
which like somebody's like, why

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is an HR person taking business
classes?

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Like, well, if more these people
took HR classes and more HR

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class people took business
classes, we'd probably all be a

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little bit better off.
So so that was that start.

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And then and then I was working
for a software company and I had

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one foot in academia and 1 foot
in corporate.

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And so I wanted to switch feet.
Everybody was like, hey, if you

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don't, if you get your doctorate
degree and you don't go into

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teaching, like they're not going
to let you in in two years

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because you'll be tainted by
corporate.

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That's.
Tainted.

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They didn't want like, you know,
you'll be tainted by corporate

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like, well.
You don't be out of function in

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education anymore.
Right, Exactly.

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Yeah.
I'm like, well, wouldn't it be

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the other way around?
Wouldn't I mean, So anyway, it's

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starting to change in that
direction, but so I look for

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opportunities.
I found one in Bloomsburg.

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I really like what they did.
They had this corporate Advisory

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Council where they brought
corporate people in every

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semester and, and the students
presented to them a mock, a

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response to a mock RFP.
And I thought, Oh my gosh, this

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is a great class.
So I started working there and

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then I got interested in
gamification.

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I started publishing books about
gamification and learning

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design.
And because I wanted to share

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the knowledge, you know, that I
was, I was able to work and

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research on.
And so I started to, to do that

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and then started, got an
opportunity to be a alynda.com

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instructor and, and, and now
that they're LinkedIn learning.

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And then so it just kind of, you
know, spiraled from there.

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I just was having so much fun
doing stuff.

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And, you know, I'm like, no
one's going to ever hear me in

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little, little old Bloomsburg,
PA.

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OK, well, maybe I should, you
know, expand, break the four

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walls down.
So that was kind of what I spent

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a lot of time doing.
Oh my goodness.

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I love this journey.
And I love the fact that you

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were like put into an intern
program that was instructional

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technology.
And you know what, just for the

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listeners out there here, a
little bit younger than 90s did

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exist.
There was instructional

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technology.
We were doing instructional

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design.
We weren't just, you know,

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writing on with our pencils and
paper and our chalkboards.

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So that's really an amazing
journey for you, Carl.

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And I want to talk.
I want to talk a little bit

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because I'm a higher education
instructor too, and I teach

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instructional design courses.
So tell us a little bit about

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that journey for you and how
that has influenced and impacted

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the things that you've done for
the LND space.

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Because you know, you've spoke
in different places, you're a

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consultant, you do all these
different things.

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So how has teaching kind of
maybe grounded you in?

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I always say I have to practice
what I preach.

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So tell us a little bit about
that experience.

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Right practice and defend.
Right, because.

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Yes, Oh yes, yes, 100%.
Athletic then, Steve.

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So like, yeah, Doctor Kaiser,
even real, like how's that even

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work?
Come on.

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So it's it's great in terms of
like always having to defend and

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think about it and research it.
And but just to get back real,

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real quick, I was doing
instructions on we, we literally

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had a green screen and one word.
And the one question in the

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middle of the school was, so
we've come so far.

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We have, we have.
I'm so proud of us, yeah.

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So the, the interesting thing
about, you know, you know,

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teaching and that is, is exactly
is you have the opportunity to

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do the research, to apply the
research and then see the

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results.
So I think that's that's kind of

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fun and interesting.
But one of the things that, as

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you know in the field is
sometimes the academic research

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doesn't always translate into
practice.

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And so a lot of what I've been
trying to do is like, OK, well,

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this is what it really means for
somebody who's in the field

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practicing because our, our
students in our program, we, we,

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when we first started, it was
very unique in that we had a

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corporate track as well as an
education track.

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So a lot of academic tracks are,
are focused on or we're focused

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on academics.
And ours was a little bit

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different at the time was
focused on corporate.

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So the corporate people were
very demanding, like I want

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these students to be able to
come out here and and create

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stuff right away.
They have to use the software.

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They can't, you know, know about
the software.

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So we had, we spent our, my
predecessor, Dr. Hank Bailey had

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build up relationships with all
these corporate people and

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stuff, which was hard for me
because when I first came in

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1997, like he not purposefully,
but you know, all his corporate

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connections left with him.
So I just spent a lot trying to

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build that.
Yeah.

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So that was a couple.
The network totally went away.

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Exactly.
I'm like, what am I going to do?

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So I started, you know, that's
why I started going to

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conferences and speaking to get,
you know, corporate people to

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come back to Bloomsburg and, you
know, talk to the students and

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give the students opportunities.
So, so, so it was kind of born a

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little bit of necessity to get
out there and get people

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involved with our program and
what we were doing.

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That's that's amazing and I love
the fact that like, you know,

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you did, you did have that
predecessor that kind of set

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things up, but I'm sorry that
they took your network.

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I think one of the most
challenging things about about

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teaching, especially
instructional design courses is

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like you have to like what
you're saying about the real

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world.
Like they have to be able to

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apply it right away.
And like the theories and the

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knowledge and the frameworks are
all part of that conversation.

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But putting that into practice
into like, you know, putting my

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students into real world
situations, like my students

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design an entire online training
course.

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And they are so like they're
super intimidated by the fact

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that they have to design this
thing from start to finish.

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And they're like, we have to use
an LMS with an LMS.

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You know, they've taken the
intro course and it's just, but

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by the end of the semester, they
really feel like proud of

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themselves, like they've done
all these things.

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And I could say that they've
experienced something like

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project management in the real
world.

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Yeah, no, that's that's
fantastic.

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I mean, that's the best way to
do it.

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It it early in my career I
wrote, I think one of my first

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academic publications ever was I
did some work on using a problem

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based learning approach to teach
instructional design and was

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really that that really helped
to me bring like kind of what I

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was doing academically grounded
kind of what one of the things

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so I don't want to give Hank
about Hank was awesome.

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Like he gave me all his that my
predecessor gave me all his

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materials and everything.
It's just that when he left,

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like his corporate people were
like, yeah, you know, I used to

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do that.
I don't they, they use that as

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an opportunity to to leave as
well.

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But he gave me a lot of good
stuff.

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But he had founded this class
where where you form students

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into teams, where you give them,
you know, a mock request for

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proposal where they have to
respond and they have to.

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So all that was his problem
based learning approach.

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I'm like, Oh my gosh, this is a
brilliant approach.

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And so, you know, I just kind of
honed that through the years,

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but he was really kind of the,
the, the founder of that like,

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and, and really set, I think the
groundwork for that.

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But it was funny when I, when I
interviewed, I had to give a

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lecture and I had mentioned
Kirkpatrick's 4 levels of

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evaluation.
And afterwards they kind of

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laughed and they said what?
Well, and they said, well, last

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time the students had, they had
a presentation, they were asked

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00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:38,840
about Kirkpatrick's and none of
them knew anything about, we

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didn't know anything about
Kirkpatrick.

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So I'm like, Oh my gosh, like
that's like a common thing.

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So that practical approach that
I had was valuable when I came

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into the Department of
Bloomsburg back in WOW 1997.

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When you say the 90s, I feel
like the 90s were like 10 years

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00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:02,520
ago.
My gosh, I know, I know. 10

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00:12:02,720 --> 00:12:04,280
years ago and a million years
ago, right?

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00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:06,960
Yes, yes.
And when people post those kind

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of like memes out on social
media, like 1930 is the same.

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We're the same.
We're close to 2050, like 1930

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to 1990, whatever.
And I'm like stop, like stop

237
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making me feel old, but that's
that.

238
00:12:20,920 --> 00:12:22,800
It's fun.
I love the 90s were great.

239
00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:25,760
Anyways, let's get into your new
book.

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00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:28,680
So you have a new book called
Action First Learning, and I'm

241
00:12:28,680 --> 00:12:30,960
so glad you're here to talk
about it.

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00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:34,760
Action first is a really
powerful phrase.

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00:12:34,760 --> 00:12:37,160
And when I think about that as
an instructional designer, that

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could mean a variety of
different things to me.

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So tell us a little bit about
what does that mean in the

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00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:45,520
context of learning design?
And then I have a few questions

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00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:47,080
about the book.
Yeah, great.

248
00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:51,520
So, so to me, one of the things
that has always so I I got

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started in games, games
gamification because one day I

250
00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:58,120
was sitting in my, you know,
basement playing video games.

251
00:12:58,120 --> 00:12:59,840
It was like 3:00 in the morning
while I was like.

252
00:12:59,960 --> 00:13:01,400
What video games were you
playing?

253
00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:04,240
I was playing James Bond double
O 7 Nightfire.

254
00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:07,640
Oh my God.
Yes, talk about 1990, talk about

255
00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:10,280
the 1990.
That's such a great game.

256
00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:12,080
And I'll tell you how much I did
not know.

257
00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:14,760
Back then, they had a
multiplayer mode and they had

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these things called AI bots.
But you know, we're playing on

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fuzzy TV, so we call them the
bots.

260
00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:23,720
We're like why are these OWL
bots like chasing us?

261
00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:29,040
We have some, we have some OWL
bots.

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00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:31,640
We have some owl bots chasing us
now, certainly.

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00:13:33,520 --> 00:13:36,120
Yeah, that's great.
I love that.

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Yeah, that was really funny.
So, so I was playing again, but

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I'm.
But I'm like, well, why are

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people like, so why am I up till
3:00 in the morning playing this

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game when online learning it
like puts people to sleep?

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So that was kind of the premise.
So over the years I've kind of

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00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:52,240
worked on that.
And one of the things that that

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really I find sets a tone both
in the classroom and online is

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when people do something first.
Like if I do a workshop and then

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halfway through I'm like, OK,
let's do an activity.

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People are like, yeah, but if I
put an activity, they're like,

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00:14:06,040 --> 00:14:09,280
yeah, this is great.
And the momentum continues

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through the whole experience.
And I'm like what?

276
00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:14,240
Wait a minute, we should do
that, be doing that online too.

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We should do action 1st.
And so I wanted to put together

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00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:20,880
this kind of almost more of a
philosophy, right?

279
00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:24,560
So gamification, the problem is
one of the problems is if you

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were like, well, is that a game
or gamification?

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00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:29,600
Like I don't really care as long
as you're involving the learner,

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getting them interested and, and
kind of moving them forward.

283
00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:35,440
But there's a lot of discussion
about, you know, when's it

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00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:37,120
become a game and all that kind
of stuff.

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00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:40,320
And so I wanted to get away from
that terminology and I wanted to

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00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:44,280
move toward action 1st.
And so no matter what you do,

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00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:47,360
whether it's not gamified,
whether it's just an activity,

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you're helping the learners take
action and there is act, you

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00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:56,080
know, activity based learning.
The problem with that is again,

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00:14:56,080 --> 00:15:00,040
on the academic side is there's
the sometimes definitions are so

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00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:01,840
rigid.
So I'll get in a discussion and

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00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:04,360
somebody say, well, that's not
really activity based learning

293
00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:05,760
or that's not really problem
based learning.

294
00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:07,640
That's not really I'm like,
well, why not know?

295
00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:11,200
Well, according to such and
such, here's the and so like,

296
00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:15,080
OK, OK, I get that we need that
for research, but practitioners

297
00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:19,760
don't care.
So I said, OK, let's pick a term

298
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that I think people can get
behind that doesn't have any

299
00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:26,480
baggage associated with it.
Or trauma or trauma, like

300
00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:29,920
negative connotation, you know,
all the different things.

301
00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:32,480
You know, it's interesting, you
know, you brought up a good

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00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:35,120
point.
Like everybody tries to put some

303
00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:38,320
of these things into boxes that
they're, but that's not how

304
00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:40,920
instructional design is.
That's not how L&D is.

305
00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:44,320
Like it could one day it could
be one thing, the next day it

306
00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:46,120
could be a different thing.
Anyways, I digress.

307
00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:49,040
That's a great, I mean, Holly,
that's such a great point

308
00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:52,920
because people do try to put it
in boxes and then I think the

309
00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:55,680
box limits.
Like one time I did a blog post

310
00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:59,280
and I said, according to such
and such research, the best

311
00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:02,360
time, the best length of the
video is about 5 minutes.

312
00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:05,760
And this person, who obviously
was a PhD student, said, how

313
00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:09,840
dare you give that advice?
The researchers didn't look at

314
00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:12,920
4:30.
They didn't look at 5 O1.

315
00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:14,520
We don't.
Know my goodness.

316
00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:17,480
And it's I'm like, Oh my God,
like, come on.

317
00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:20,280
So yeah, wait till we test every
second.

318
00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:22,680
And then we give advice to the
practitioners.

319
00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:24,200
I'm like, yeah, that's not,
that's not.

320
00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:26,720
Happening yeah that's not it'll
never get it'll never get

321
00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:29,120
finished and there'll always be
like that's what research is

322
00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:31,840
though you're sharing, you know
different you're doing

323
00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:34,640
experiments different ways or
case studies different ways so

324
00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:36,160
that person.
Obviously you're sharing it in

325
00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:38,360
process, right I.
Mean, right, Right.

326
00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:41,600
There's not an end monolith of
knowledge that oh, we finally

327
00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:43,880
found it.
It's you're working it out as it

328
00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:46,520
goes along, people change
research elements.

329
00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:48,200
So I just thought that was so
funny.

330
00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:51,480
So to your point, people do like
to kind of box that in from the,

331
00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:54,280
from the research perspective,
but the IT leaves the

332
00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:57,400
practitioners with what I mean,
some practitioners are still

333
00:16:57,400 --> 00:17:00,560
doing learning styles.
So, you know, we have a long way

334
00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:03,280
to go to get kind of the
research out there.

335
00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:05,920
So let's not, let's not hoard it
until we're perfect.

336
00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:07,839
Let's get it out there.
And so that was part of the

337
00:17:07,839 --> 00:17:11,000
impetus.
And then finally, I was looking

338
00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:13,920
back at Action First Comics, and
you know, it was.

339
00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:15,560
Super.
I was going to say, I love that

340
00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:17,319
theme in your book.
I love it.

341
00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:19,920
That played a large role as
well.

342
00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:23,640
Yeah, and and also too, I want
to mention that you have

343
00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:26,280
coloring pages.
I do in the book.

344
00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:27,920
Yeah.
So I think that's really, that's

345
00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:29,520
really cool.
But I mean, that's not the

346
00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:31,400
coolest part.
So tell us a little bit more

347
00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:33,640
like what's what's the book?
What's it about?

348
00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:36,200
Like how's it going to help us
as instructional designers?

349
00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:38,760
Are those in higher education in
the in the field?

350
00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:42,280
I definitely have already
considered that this might be my

351
00:17:42,280 --> 00:17:44,320
next book that I'm going to use
to teach with.

352
00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:47,080
Oh, excellent.
Because of what you're covering

353
00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:50,960
and and how it correlates with
the, the curriculum teaching, I

354
00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:53,720
think it's fantastic.
And you're such a, you break it

355
00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:57,320
down so simply for people to
kind of understand these

356
00:17:57,320 --> 00:17:59,480
different learning experiences.
So tell us a little bit more

357
00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:00,320
about.
Thanks.

358
00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:04,200
Yeah, yeah.
So, so the book is the 1st

359
00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:06,080
chapter is, you know, like kind
of what is action first

360
00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:08,040
learning, what is some of the
research behind it, that kind of

361
00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:10,440
stuff.
And then I have 9 chapters that

362
00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:16,200
take a different action, first
learning technique and then

363
00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:18,640
explain the technique.
Now, I don't think that there's

364
00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:20,440
only 9.
There's lots more than 9, but

365
00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:23,800
you run out of book space.
Run on a page, right?

366
00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:26,000
Exactly.
So I'm hoping more people will

367
00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:29,560
kind of expand, but so for
example, one of the chapters is

368
00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:33,280
on card games.
And So what I do in every

369
00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:35,920
chapter is I started with an
action first thing that you have

370
00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:38,000
to do.
So when you read the chapter,

371
00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:40,080
you got to take action before
you before you're allowed to

372
00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:41,440
read the rest of it.
I don't know how that's

373
00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:43,080
enforced.
But you're modeling what you're

374
00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:44,280
preaching.
I love it.

375
00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:46,600
Exactly.
And then the next step after

376
00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:50,520
that is I have a case study of
people doing that.

377
00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:53,920
And then I also say this book
like, like I think I've written

378
00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:56,640
like, I don't know, like 10
books or whatever and every

379
00:18:56,680 --> 00:18:57,560
book.
That you a lot.

380
00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:01,280
It told me a lot of books you
read when I research how many

381
00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:04,440
books you've written.
It's it's kept me busy.

382
00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:07,000
It's awesome.
I, I mean like I'm you're my

383
00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:08,600
role model.
I haven't written one book, but

384
00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:11,400
I feel like I have all this
knowledge to just put down.

385
00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:13,880
Well, I always say, I mean, if
you have a class, you have a

386
00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:16,200
book.
I mean, you could still, you can

387
00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:19,880
easily write, write a book, but
one of the things that every

388
00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:22,080
time I write a book, you know,
you always get criticism.

389
00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:24,360
So, you know, I wrote one book
and said, this is great, but

390
00:19:24,360 --> 00:19:26,720
there's no case studies.
OK, then I wrote another book.

391
00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:28,400
This is great.
Case studies are great, but

392
00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:29,720
there's no step by step
instruction.

393
00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:33,520
OK, hey, this is great.
But so there's no takeaways.

394
00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:35,880
So this book is also a
combination of what I learned.

395
00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:38,760
So every chapter has a detailed
case study.

396
00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:43,400
It has step by step instructions
and it has this is good for

397
00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:45,120
teaching that.
So card games are good for

398
00:19:45,120 --> 00:19:49,000
teaching discrimination where
you sort one thing from another

399
00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:53,920
and then I say when to use them.
So every chapter provides kind

400
00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:58,840
of a road map of of what it is,
why it's effective, why how

401
00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:01,760
people have used it and why you
should use it and then how you

402
00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:03,800
can use it.
And then finally, you know, the

403
00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:07,400
age of AII, put a little AI
prompt in there.

404
00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:09,760
So.
If you're not familiar with AI

405
00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:13,200
or you do AI, you can copy that
prompt, paste it into AI, and it

406
00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:16,360
can help you with whatever that
action first learning approach

407
00:20:16,360 --> 00:20:18,280
happens to be.
I mean, you have all the things

408
00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:20,440
in the book now, like nobody can
criticize it.

409
00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:26,320
I mean, you know, if someone
said, you know, if you're not,

410
00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:33,760
if you're, if you're not taking
arrows in the chest, then you're

411
00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:37,400
not far enough out ahead,
something like that, right?

412
00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:39,560
So yeah.
I mean, you're always going to

413
00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:43,600
take arrows and that's fine.
And that's just what you do when

414
00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:47,760
you're in the position.
And always, I always say take

415
00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:51,280
the best comments and disregard
those, then take the worst

416
00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:53,640
comments and disregard those.
And then the truth is probably

417
00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:56,400
somewhere in the middle.
Yeah, absolutely.

418
00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:59,520
So one of the things I think
that's like a struggle,

419
00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:03,000
especially in this industry is
that people think that, you

420
00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:04,960
know, commonly trained is the
answer.

421
00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:07,920
So one of the core ideas in the
book is like we should design

422
00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:11,320
for doing, not just like the the
knowledge piece of that.

423
00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:15,040
So as as an instructor in higher
education and an instructional

424
00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:17,080
designer, all these different
things, what does that look like

425
00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:20,280
in practice to people?
Cuz I think we have a lot of

426
00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:23,160
listeners on the show who are
transitioning teachers and

427
00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:25,480
they're thinking about getting
into instructional designs.

428
00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:27,800
So can you give us an idea of
like, what does that look like

429
00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:31,600
in practice?
Yeah, I think the very first

430
00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:34,360
thing to think about is what
does a person have to do?

431
00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:37,840
So, and part of the problem is
when we talk to a subject matter

432
00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:40,480
expert, we usually ask them
like, what do they have to know

433
00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:42,200
and what do you know and that
kind of stuff.

434
00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:44,280
And I think we get the wrong
impression.

435
00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:47,200
But what we have to do is what
do we want at the end of the

436
00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:48,480
day?
What do we want the person to

437
00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:50,920
do?
So if you think about like

438
00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:54,600
YouTube, for example, it's
really like I had to change the

439
00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:56,200
shower head in my shower
upstairs.

440
00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:58,280
I didn't need to know the
history of the shower head.

441
00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:00,240
I didn't even know how shower
heads are built.

442
00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:02,800
All I need to know is what do I
unscrew in which direction?

443
00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:04,120
And then what do I screw back
in, right?

444
00:22:04,120 --> 00:22:06,880
That's what I needed to know.
So that also got me thinking

445
00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:10,760
like, OK, how do we take action?
So, so if you look at your

446
00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:13,720
classroom and same thing with
learning objectives.

447
00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:16,760
Sometimes I call them learning
objections because if you.

448
00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:19,400
Learn.
Right.

449
00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:21,280
The learner goes, Oh, I already
know how to do that.

450
00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:24,120
Like if you say today you will
learn three ways to, and they'll

451
00:22:24,120 --> 00:22:26,320
go, I know four ways.
This is a waste of my time.

452
00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:30,880
So I think let's start out like,
OK, you're in a sales situation,

453
00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:33,760
try to sell somebody.
Oh, OK, you forgot to say this,

454
00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:36,800
this, this and this.
So now we, we and, and going

455
00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:40,200
back to Malcolm Knowles, now the
adult learner knows they don't

456
00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:42,000
know something.
So if you put them in a

457
00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:44,640
situation where they have to
apply knowledge, even if they

458
00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:47,920
don't, even if you haven't
taught it before, because

459
00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:49,800
they're adult learners, they
have some level of knowledge,

460
00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:53,120
even if they don't know it.
And when they try to apply it,

461
00:22:53,120 --> 00:22:56,360
then they're more open to
learning because they know they

462
00:22:56,360 --> 00:22:58,800
don't know it.
And you've, you've created the

463
00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:02,640
schemas and the pathways.
And so start people out and it

464
00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:04,760
can be very simple.
You could say, hey, we're going

465
00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:07,240
to learn about, let's say
history.

466
00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:09,680
We're going to learn about the
history of the Civil War.

467
00:23:10,120 --> 00:23:11,600
Let's put these battles in
order.

468
00:23:12,120 --> 00:23:14,640
You're like, I don't know.
And they're in cards and you

469
00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:17,560
sort them in order and then you
can go by, OK, why did you think

470
00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:21,480
the Gettysburg was before, you
know, Sumter Hill or something

471
00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:23,640
like that?
Right now you can discuss it.

472
00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:27,200
And now people go, Oh yeah.
And now you're, you're exposing

473
00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:30,520
and, and, and, and remedying
paradigms.

474
00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:33,160
And if you do it in a sales
situation and somebody's like,

475
00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:34,760
oh, well, that's why sales
doesn't work.

476
00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:36,760
And it's the whole idea of
practice.

477
00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:41,120
Like I, I feel like people,
especially in corporations, feel

478
00:23:41,120 --> 00:23:42,080
like they don't need to
practice.

479
00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:44,040
Like I've been a sales person
for 50 years.

480
00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:46,480
I don't need to practice.
Well, how do you know you're any

481
00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:48,080
good?
How do you know?

482
00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:50,000
Yeah.
And when this stuff, when it

483
00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:53,120
changes or using the same
methods, I mean, people could

484
00:23:53,120 --> 00:23:56,080
possibly still be sitting down
typing on a typewriter, right?

485
00:23:56,120 --> 00:23:57,920
Why aren't you getting on a
computer?

486
00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:01,960
Yeah, that's, that's what I
think about is in terms of like

487
00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:04,440
the what are they doing that's
archaic?

488
00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:07,600
And like if you've done it for
50 years or if you've done it

489
00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:11,320
for 20 years, like are you
constantly reinventing yourself

490
00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:14,080
and your methods to align with
what's happening in the world?

491
00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:17,320
Hello, AI, Hello.
All the different things that

492
00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:20,640
are impacting our industry.
You know, it's a good question

493
00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:22,760
to ask.
Yeah, it's got to be and, and

494
00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:24,920
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean, we can have a whole

495
00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:26,840
other conversation on on how
that industry is.

496
00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:27,840
Changing.
Oh yeah, you're definitely

497
00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:30,680
coming back because this is,
this is not enough time for me.

498
00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:33,840
Once Santa is a side note, I
love your microphone, how it

499
00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:35,840
changes color.
Oh, thank you.

500
00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:38,120
It's it's, it's a conversation
starter.

501
00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:40,160
That is very cool.
Thank you.

502
00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:45,800
And it's really cool because one
of the things you can do muted,

503
00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:48,120
so when it's not changing
colors, that means I'm muted.

504
00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:51,600
And I love that because
sometimes, you know, you're in

505
00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:54,840
the Zoom meeting or you're in
the Riverside recording and I

506
00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:57,640
forget to unmute myself.
So I just use that if I need to

507
00:24:57,640 --> 00:24:59,520
mute if something's happening.
That's great.

508
00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:03,800
That's a nice feature.
Yeah, well, let's talk a little

509
00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:05,280
bit more.
Let's wrap up a little bit on

510
00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:07,480
the book.
So tell people like where they

511
00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:09,800
where can they access it?
Where can they get it?

512
00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:13,360
Yeah, You know, we're gonna put
all the links in the show notes.

513
00:25:13,360 --> 00:25:15,280
I want you to advertise it as
much as possible.

514
00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:17,880
I'm gonna go and get it.
I did a little bit of research

515
00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:22,080
about it, so tell us.
So tell us where to find it.

516
00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:24,560
Amazon.
I always say, you know, it's

517
00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:28,000
available where finer books are
sold, but I think it's also not

518
00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:31,600
as fine books are sold, but you
can get it.

519
00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:35,800
So the place probably the best
is ATD has a website.

520
00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:38,800
And yeah, the cool thing about
that is there's actually an

521
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:42,720
instructor guide.
I love that.

522
00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:47,280
Downloadable items, yes.
So go to ATD if you don't want

523
00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:49,240
to go there, you can certainly
go to Amazon.

524
00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:51,920
That helps my Amazon numbers,
but it's not the best.

525
00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:54,160
But and then Barnes and Nobles,
yes, still around.

526
00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:57,040
And you can, you can go ahead
and get the book there.

527
00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:00,600
If you, you know, follow me on
LinkedIn.

528
00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:04,480
I have a, a newsletter called
L&D Easter Eggs.

529
00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:08,000
And I always think links and
stuff like that.

530
00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:12,200
I did a post a while back and
I'll repost it on on when when

531
00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:15,520
this airs on.
I put together a curriculum of

532
00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:20,480
all my YouTube videos, LinkedIn
learning courses, articles that

533
00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:22,520
correspond with each chapter of
the book.

534
00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:25,280
So if you're like, hey, I want
to know about digital card

535
00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:27,800
games, You can go and look at
everything I've done in digital

536
00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:29,480
card games.
If you want to know about escape

537
00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:30,880
rooms, you can look at escape
rooms.

538
00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:33,960
You want to know about creating
an AI chat bot, you know you can

539
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:37,840
go there.
So I'm building out a whole

540
00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:41,720
playlist that links back to the
book so that that can be

541
00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:43,520
helpful.
I want, I mean, you got to have

542
00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:46,080
the book out there and all that
kind of stuff, but you know,

543
00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:48,520
this kind of goes beyond that
and helps people really

544
00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:51,360
implement it and and.
You're organized like you, you

545
00:26:51,360 --> 00:26:54,560
don't feel everyone like I like
to take active like notes as I'm

546
00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:56,600
writing the book.
But then you go and you organize

547
00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:58,720
and you give us all these these
guides and things.

548
00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:00,680
And I love the fact that you
design an instructor guide for

549
00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:02,880
people who you want to use this
thing in their courses.

550
00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:06,240
That is like, that's golden
within itself.

551
00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:11,560
So thank you for doing that.
I mean, I, I don't know what I

552
00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:14,120
do without some of the books
that I've read.

553
00:27:14,120 --> 00:27:17,760
Like, you know, I, I really love
design for how people learn.

554
00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:22,400
It's one that consistently and
that's the current book I use.

555
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:25,960
But just the guides and things
are they're, they're so

556
00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:28,400
valuable.
Yeah, the one thing I love about

557
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:31,960
this field is everyone so giving
and and you know, they publish

558
00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:34,200
everything and they're not
keeping it secrets and you know,

559
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:36,040
that kind of stuff.
And I, I think that's one of the

560
00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:38,640
things that makes this field
from the academic and the, and

561
00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:42,080
the, and the professional side
so, so invigorating because

562
00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:45,160
people are sharing and are
helping and it's, it's a helping

563
00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:47,680
industry.
I 100% agree with that.

564
00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:49,760
I don't know, I don't know how
other communities are.

565
00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:52,280
I imagine they're not, they like
to keep secrets, but we don't,

566
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:54,840
we just share everything and if
it's like it doesn't work, we'll

567
00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:56,280
try something out.
If it doesn't work, we'll point

568
00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:57,520
you to the person that can help
you.

569
00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:00,800
Here's the expert like in action
learning and, and all those

570
00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:03,200
different things.
So I want to kind of as we start

571
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:05,360
to wrap up the episode, I want
to shift the conversation a

572
00:28:05,360 --> 00:28:07,200
little bit.
Like I mentioned earlier, we

573
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:09,680
have a lot of transitioning
teachers that listen to this

574
00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:13,920
show and they're always looking
for a advice from experts like

575
00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:17,720
yourself about you.
You're a consultant, you teach

576
00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:20,400
in higher education, you are a
leader in this space, you're an

577
00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:24,160
influence in this space.
So people thinking about leaving

578
00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:27,280
the education space, maybe
stepping into a role saying

579
00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:29,360
instructional design or learning
experience design.

580
00:28:29,360 --> 00:28:31,200
Do you have any advice that you
could give them?

581
00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:34,280
Maybe one to three things like.
Yeah.

582
00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:39,440
So, so one thing I would say is
is create instruction online

583
00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:44,560
instruction like before you need
to like start doing it.

584
00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:48,760
So do it for nonprofits, do it
for your kids school, do it for

585
00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:51,480
yourself, do it for your
hobbies, whatever.

586
00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:55,280
Just get into the practice of
developing online instruction

587
00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:57,840
and and presenting it.
I think that's really important.

588
00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:01,120
The second thing is get involved
with communities of practice

589
00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:05,240
like this one where you can get
good information and good ideas

590
00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:07,480
and you know, there's all kinds
of professional organizations.

591
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:10,560
So you can, you can become a
member of those as well.

592
00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:15,240
And then the third one is you,
you kind of have to.

593
00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:18,720
So this is advice that's counter
like a lot of people that are

594
00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:22,480
are are self help people say say
no to everything except your

595
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:25,600
core goal.
Like don't get distracted, don't

596
00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:28,080
say yes to everything.
I kind of have the opposite.

597
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:30,360
I like to say yes to everything
like, oh, I've never done that

598
00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:31,400
before.
Let me try that out.

599
00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:34,560
OK, well, maybe I won't do that
again or yeah, let me try this.

600
00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:37,120
So so I.
Feel like you and I are kindred

601
00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:39,400
spirits there because I do a lot
too and I don't.

602
00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:42,360
I don't, but everything kind of
connects.

603
00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:44,520
It all connects.
It definitely does.

604
00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:46,880
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, if you do it right or even

605
00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:48,520
if you just do it, it just
connects.

606
00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:51,280
And I find, you know, if I, if I
do something over here on the

607
00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:53,680
corporate side comes back to the
classroom, I do something in the

608
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:55,960
classroom, it comes back to my
consulting, I come back.

609
00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:57,840
So.
So yeah, those are my three

610
00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:00,000
pieces of advice.
You know, create instruction,

611
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:03,480
even if somebody hasn't asked
you to go ahead and join a

612
00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:06,360
community of practice and, and
learn from the others and, and

613
00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:08,800
get solos from the others and
then say yes to lots of

614
00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:11,080
different opportunities and, and
implement those opportunities.

615
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:14,160
And then finally, I would say
ground yourself in the science.

616
00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:17,040
There's a lot of people that are
accidental instructional

617
00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:19,800
designers, which is fantastic,
but they don't have the learning

618
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:22,840
science to back up some of the
decisions that they make.

619
00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:26,400
So even if you're an accidental
instructional designer, if

620
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:28,800
you're coming from an education
background, typically you've had

621
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:32,760
some training in pedagogy or
some of the research behind

622
00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:35,560
teaching methods and techniques.
So that's going to be an

623
00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:39,480
advantage as you move forward.
There's tons of transferable

624
00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:41,400
skills there.
Then that's one thing we do talk

625
00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:43,240
about a lot is the transferable
skills.

626
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:46,800
Yeah.
So thank you so much.

627
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:50,320
Isn't by super fast for me.
I'm going to have to have you

628
00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:54,400
back on so we can talk about
some other things that that

629
00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:55,920
you're into and things that
you're doing.

630
00:30:55,920 --> 00:31:01,360
And I want to let everybody know
that how to access and get your

631
00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:04,720
copy of Action First Learning is
going to be in the show notes.

632
00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:06,920
Please go out to LinkedIn World,
follow Carl.

633
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:08,880
Everything's going to be there
for you to find him.

634
00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:10,720
So easy.
It's going to all be linked.

635
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:12,680
Carl.
Any final thoughts from you

636
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:15,360
before we end the episode for
the audience?

637
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:21,200
So one of my favorite quotes is
by Mario Andretti, and he said

638
00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:24,480
if everything seems under
control, you're just not going

639
00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:27,440
fast enough.
So that's my piece of advice.

640
00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:30,240
I love it.
I feel like I'm definitely out

641
00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:33,680
of control right now.
Like I that used to give me like

642
00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:35,680
so much, I'm like, I can't
control and nothing's going on.

643
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:38,120
Then I read that quote and I'm
like, Oh my gosh, it all kind of

644
00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:40,640
makes sense.
It all looks it's all coming

645
00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:43,000
together.
Well, this is this is so much

646
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:45,480
fun.
I can't wait to drop this

647
00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:48,080
episode and make sure that if
you're listening to our show,

648
00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:50,440
you're also giving us a great
review.

649
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:52,720
Carl, thanks again for being on
the show.

650
00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:55,120
We I loved having you.
This has been a great

651
00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:57,120
conversation.
Thanks, I've had a great time.

652
00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:01,920
Hi, we're Ice Spring, an
international team of e-learning

653
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:05,160
enthusiasts who help more than
60,000 clients across the globe

654
00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:07,320
succeed with better online
learning.

655
00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:10,880
Our two flagship solutions are
Ice Spring Suite and Ice Spring

656
00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:13,960
Learn LMS.
Ice Spring Suite is an intuitive

657
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:16,680
all in one authoring tool for
creating engaging e-learning

658
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:19,880
content, while Ice Spring Learn
is an innovative online training

659
00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:22,880
platform for on boarding up,
skilling and certifying your

660
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:25,040
teams.
We'd be happy to get to know you

661
00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:27,080
and pick a solution that fits
your needs best.

662
00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:31,560
Go to www.ispringsolutions.com
to learn more about us and

663
00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:34,200
connect.
Thanks for spending a few

664
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:36,560
minutes with Holly.
She knows your podcast queue is

665
00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:39,200
packed.
If today's episode sparked an

666
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:43,400
idea or gave you that extra
nudge of confidence, tap follow

667
00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:47,080
or subscribe in your favorite
app so you never miss an episode

668
00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:48,200
of Edup L and.