105: Video Episode- We Went LIVE to Talk About Instructional Design with Nadia Johnson, Luke Hobson, and Heidi Kirby!

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Hello everyone.
We are here.

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It is 6:00 PM kind of on the
East Coast.

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We have all finished up our work
days and we're here with you and

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I am live at UP at Tech.
We are here with Doctor Luke

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Hopson, Nadia Johnson and Doctor
Heidi Kirby, and we're super

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excited to talk to you about
instructional design, our

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favorite topic to, as Luke puts
it, nerd out on.

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So we're just going to get right
into it.

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And before you know, we talk
about all things instructional

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design, I want each of you to
take the time to introduce

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yourself, tell us all the
wonderful things that you're

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doing.
So, Nadia, let's start with you

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Well.
Hello, I'm Nadia.

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I'm Nadia Johnson.
I am a learning designer at

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Zaner Brozer and have been in
the Ed tech in K12 industry for

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about 7 years.
Awesome.

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How do you want to go next?
Sure.

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I'm doctor Heidi Kirby.
I am.

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I have been in L&D for several
years now and was a college

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professor before that, so came
to instructional design by way

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of education like a lot of
people do.

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And now I work as an L&D leader
and my next role that hasn't

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even started yet is joining.
The good learning agency as a

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fractional chief learning
officer and learning strategist.

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All right, awesome stuff.
I'm.

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I'm sure we're going to talk
more about that, Luke.

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And I guess I'll go next.
Hello, folks.

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I'm Luke.
You probably know me on the

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Internet as Doctor Luke Hobson.
I am a learning nerd.

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I'm a senior instructional
designer at MIT.

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I'm also a lecturer at the
University of Miami.

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I'm an author.
I wrote two books.

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Now what I wish to do Before
Becoming an instructional

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designer.
And So You want to Become an

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instructional designer.
And I make a lot of content on

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the Internet talking about
designing, learning experiences.

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That's what I do, yeah.
And it's pretty awesome.

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Like a combination of like this
is like the the perfect storm of

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instructional design coming
together and Ed tech.

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It's like all the synergy.
I'm going to just apologize in

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advance for the dog that's
barking in the background.

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I am at home, but we all get
that.

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So I want to jump into it.
I want to know and Luke, because

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a lot of people have read your
book and Heidi, because I know

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you and Nadia, because I know
you very well.

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Now I want you to tell us a
little bit about your stories,

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about how you've gotten to
instructional design and you

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know what that was like for you.
Just give us, you know, some

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background about.
Sure you.

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Want me to go first?
Yeah, absolutely.

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Jump right.
Not a problem, so.

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Kind of weird about how I found
myself inside of this type of a

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educational space.
I actually failed out of high

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school my junior year.
I just completely bombed and

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flunked out.
So kind of a fun fact that now I

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work at MIT.
Kind of weird.

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Life is Strange is all I really
have to say about that.

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I love it.
I love it.

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Fast forward several years
though.

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I found myself working at 7 to
Hampshire University and I was

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an academic advisor and I was
just chatting and doing all

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these different types of coffee
chats with people.

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Happened to chat with one
friend.

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And he said that he was an
instructional designer.

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And I'm like, well, what the
heck is that?

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And he's like, well, you know
how you're walking your students

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through all of these different
types of courses?

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Well, someone has to design
those.

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It's not just professors.
There's all this other different

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form of support involved, and
that's instructional design.

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That's actually what we do here.
I was like, I had no idea.

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You can get paid for a living to
help with designing online

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learning experiences.
So that quickly became a passion

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of mine and tried to being able
to do that and eventually took a

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couple years to me to finally
crack the code and figure out

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how to do it.
But then eventually I ended up

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moving on over into that space
and becoming an ID at

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Northeastern University.
And that's it.

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It's been happening ever since.
Now you're at MIT, and now you

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teach in a doctoral program at
University of Miami, EU.

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Nothing makes sense.
Life does not make sense on

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these paths.
Yep, absolutely.

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Who wants to go next?
Nadia, tell us your story.

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Sure.
I'll try to keep it short.

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We as much as possible.
My story is a little similar.

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I came from an education
background, teaching in the

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classroom and my friend.
I guess my first introduction

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was I had a colleague talking
about it teaching.

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She has started the program at
Georgia State University.

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I'm not sure.
Can you guys hear an echo?

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Yeah, I'm hearing a little bit
of an echo.

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Let me see if we can do some
audio things on the background

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here.
Hold on one second.

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It's driving, but keep talking.
OK, but.

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She was telling me about intra
pro design.

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She just started at Georgia
State University and the the way

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she explained it to me was
corporate.

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And if she she was like you can
build corporate program running

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program.
And at first I was telling you

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like I'm not for that.
Really the route I want to go

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because I was very happy and
Fast forward to the pandemic I

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took a role for.
A, A.

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An online learning Academy.
And my my role was really more

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of supporting teachers but
building out courses because all

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of our curriculum was now online
due to the pandemic.

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And once I started in Kansas, I
was kind of like, I really

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enjoyed this, I love this, it's
fun.

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How can I do this all the time?
And so then I thought about.

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Instructional design that plug
that I have and I pursued it

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went to Georgia State
University, pursued my maths and

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instructional design almost done
and moved into Edson as a

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learning designer and where I
am.

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And here we are, all the fun
things.

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All right, Heidi, how about you?
I love it.

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I love how there's like so many
similar parallels to all of our

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stories and like where they
overlap so.

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I was teaching college English
and I had done a graduate degree

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program in curriculum and
instruction, so I kind of had an

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idea of what instructional
design was from that program.

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And then I became pregnant with
my son and I was like, I can't

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keep doing this adjuncting at 5
different colleges in my area

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thing, right?
If you've ever done adjuncting,

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you know I can't be working or
like not working while I'm

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paying for daycare, right?
And so I actually started a pH.

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D program in instructional
design when he was six months

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old.
Little little wild.

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Little extreme of a move, but I
did it and I actually attended

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the program at Old Dominion
University.

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And a couple semesters in, I was
like, wait, I was already doing

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this as a professor?
Like, this is the fun part of

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the job that I was enjoying.
Like I didn't enjoy the

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facilitation as much.
And so I was able to kind of

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leverage the skills I already
had to land my first

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instructional design role at
NASA, of all places.

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And so that's how how I got in
so many like big names and name

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dropping Nadia didn't mention
that she worked for near pod as

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a contractor so a lot of
different big negatives here and

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and totally unexpected that's
the that's the great thing in

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instructional design when you
are you know transitioning into

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the role it just it it's not a
it's not a limited path So

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people always say like well my
my story really unique and yes

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it is but instructional design
is like that and and into the

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different sectors so really very
unique stories coming from each

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of you but I like you said Heidi
I do see a lot of similarities

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between those stories.
So what I want to ask is now my

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mom's up here scolding the dog.
This is fun.

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This is fun.
Real life things happen.

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This is.
What happens when you go live?

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Holly Yeah, this is.
Immediately this is.

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This is a real podcast
experience all day, most people.

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Hear most people hear the edited
version, the cleaned up Polish

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version.
This is the raw, real stuff that

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we do as podcasters.
This is the real life authentic

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version of of going live.
So one of the things I want to

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ask, and any anyone of you can
answer this, there are probably

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a lot of people in the audience.
I'm assuming from the almost 300

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registrants that we had about
the Go Live that are thinking

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about becoming instructional
designers, whether that's from

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education or they're in higher
Ed or they're they're

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transitioning out from a
different profession.

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What kind of advice can you give
people about transitioning to a

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role like this?
Anybody can pick it up.

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I'll, I'll go, I talk a lot so
I'll I'll start first with with

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everything.
So trying to be able to think

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about this, the first thing I
would really try to be able to

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wrap your mind around is
thinking about your current

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strengths, your talents, and
your skill sets right now but

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you currently do possess.
Because depending upon where you

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want to be able to go, what you
want to be able to do.

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We always say about how people
are trying to transition over

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into instructional design.
But instructional design is an

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umbrella term.
There are so many different

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types of roles within this
learning and development space

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that you can go into.
And you might find that your

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skill set maybe is not exactly
aligned of instructional design,

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but it could be something else
along the lines of more for

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educational support or as a
technologist, A strategist.

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There's always ever different
types of paths.

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So first thing is first,
bringing out exactly your

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strength.
What makes you unique?

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What do you possess?
And then going out and trying to

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be able to tackle and then to do
all of those things.

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So that's kind of step one.
Once you then figure that out,

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then by all means do all the
things that we talked about for

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updating your LinkedIn profile
and the resumes and everything

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else.
But like step one, is that

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because I quickly learned about
how we have so many different

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types of job titles that when
you're searching for jobs, by

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the way, if you're trying to be
able to do this via from the

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instructional design space.
You're going to see sometimes

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that there are exactly 2 jobs
that are called instructional

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designers.
And then you go through and you

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read everything as far as the
qualifications, what the job's

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actually about, and you're like
it's not the same job.

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Like 1 focuses on this one side
with tools and tech and

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everything.
One's much more under the hood

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and focusing on research and
learning science.

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Yet we're still called the same
thing.

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So think about you first and
then you can figure out the path

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you're going to be taking.
It definitely vary.

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It definitely varies by company
too.

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I tell people that like what
people see.

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Instructional designer has look
at it.

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We have an edtech.
We have higher Ed.

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We have corporate.
There's nonprofit, there's

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government.
There's so many different types

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of roles that are available in
this space.

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Yeah, who wants to jump in next
And to?

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Be off of that, OK.
I think there's a big thing and

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especially the additional
features like this trend.

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No idea where.
It's like I have all these

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transferable skills coming from
a future to move into the faith.

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But I think sometimes we forget
is like how all these skills are

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utilized.
They're utilized differently and

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I do they then maybe they were
the previous.

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So I think it's important to
understand that yet you have

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these skills.
We all have different skills,

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but we need to know how they're
you know.

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And make ourselves aware and
understand how they're utilized

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and then you know up still in
that in that space.

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So I think that's just the
biggest because like management

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and communication in another
sector or another role is

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completely different than that
same deal and I do.

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So I think it's important to.
Go into it.

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No, no, I love it how you you
talk about those transferable

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skills and like you you can have
certain things and we'll get

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into this so that you can do as
an educator that are transition,

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you can transition to
instructional design.

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But as an educator, you know, we
ought to be careful that you're

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not saying you're an
instructional designer depending

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00:12:38,220 --> 00:12:40,820
upon what you're doing in the
space.

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Because if you're maybe if
you're a coach or technology

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support individual, yes, you're
doing some instructional design.

234
00:12:46,100 --> 00:12:50,440
But as an educator, lots of
differences there, Heidi.

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00:12:50,480 --> 00:12:52,240
I definitely want to hear what
you have to say.

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00:12:52,280 --> 00:12:54,120
Yeah.
No, everybody brings up really

237
00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:57,680
great points.
And to just kind of elaborate on

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00:12:57,680 --> 00:13:01,440
all of them, like, it is a
career shift, right?

239
00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:04,440
And whenever you're making a
career shift, even if you're

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00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:09,040
coming from education, which you
know is a very popular path, you

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00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:12,280
know, a lot of times people are
sold this bill of goods that

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00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:15,720
it's easy or there's a fast way
and like.

243
00:13:16,150 --> 00:13:18,870
There's no fact way to change
your career, right?

244
00:13:18,870 --> 00:13:21,670
Like, there's just not like it's
going to take some upskilling.

245
00:13:21,670 --> 00:13:24,190
It's going to take some
realization.

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00:13:24,190 --> 00:13:26,870
And and to your point about
like, not saying that you were

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00:13:26,870 --> 00:13:29,710
in an instructional designer
before, like not kind of

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00:13:29,710 --> 00:13:33,310
misrepresenting your past
because you're afraid of how

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00:13:33,550 --> 00:13:36,350
your background in education
will be perceived.

250
00:13:36,550 --> 00:13:40,350
It's much worse when I see a
resume that has somebody saying.

251
00:13:40,680 --> 00:13:44,640
Oh, I was an instructional
designer at San Pedro Elementary

252
00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:48,360
School the last 20 years,
because I know full well that

253
00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:51,840
there's a really great chance
that they are probably not.

254
00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:54,920
Your title is probably not
instructional designer there,

255
00:13:54,920 --> 00:13:58,040
right?
And to me that says that you

256
00:13:58,040 --> 00:14:01,840
haven't done the work or the
research or the upskilling to

257
00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:05,280
understand the nuance of the
difference between what you were

258
00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:08,320
doing before and, like Nadia
said, connecting those

259
00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:11,770
transferable skills.
To what instructional design is

260
00:14:11,770 --> 00:14:13,610
all about.
So to me that's actually a red

261
00:14:13,610 --> 00:14:16,290
flag that you don't quite get it
yet, right.

262
00:14:16,530 --> 00:14:20,570
And so I would say really
understand that it is a career

263
00:14:20,570 --> 00:14:22,730
shift and that it does take
time.

264
00:14:23,050 --> 00:14:25,210
Especially because like Luke
said, there's all these

265
00:14:25,210 --> 00:14:28,770
different titles or there's the
same title, but there's all

266
00:14:28,770 --> 00:14:31,410
these different roles that have
that same title.

267
00:14:31,410 --> 00:14:35,450
And so you really have to kind
of learn some things and some

268
00:14:35,450 --> 00:14:38,770
new things to be able to to kind
of move within the space.

269
00:14:39,640 --> 00:14:41,680
Yeah, I don't know about you all
and we're gonna get into the

270
00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:43,080
different sectors here in a
minute.

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00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:46,800
But every role that I've had,
even within like higher Ed

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00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:50,120
corporate, you know, on
freelance, it's they're all

273
00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:52,160
different.
They're all very different.

274
00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:55,640
You know, there's different
responsibilities and roles and

275
00:14:55,640 --> 00:14:58,520
things.
And Speaking of higher Ed, Luke,

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00:14:59,150 --> 00:15:01,670
we want to talk about
instructional design in higher

277
00:15:01,670 --> 00:15:03,110
Ed.
And I spent the better part of

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00:15:03,110 --> 00:15:05,870
my career in higher Ed.
So this is a, this is a

279
00:15:05,870 --> 00:15:09,630
wheelhouse for me for sure.
But from you working at MIT and

280
00:15:09,630 --> 00:15:13,310
all your experience in this
area, how is instructional

281
00:15:13,310 --> 00:15:16,710
design impacting higher Ed?
And also, what is it like being

282
00:15:16,710 --> 00:15:19,350
an instructional designer in the
higher Ed space?

283
00:15:19,870 --> 00:15:23,470
It's so interesting because it's
constantly evolving.

284
00:15:23,590 --> 00:15:26,390
So I was kind of doing a little
bit more research and diving on

285
00:15:26,390 --> 00:15:28,710
into the recent trends and
enrollments within higher

286
00:15:28,710 --> 00:15:30,750
education.
And one of the things I really

287
00:15:30,750 --> 00:15:35,190
do believe in is that right now
we really do have the tools, the

288
00:15:35,190 --> 00:15:37,790
experience, the knowledge to be
able to really create

289
00:15:37,790 --> 00:15:40,550
incredible, meaningful and
relevant types of learning

290
00:15:40,550 --> 00:15:43,520
experiences for.
Students, whether they're going

291
00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:46,360
to be for adult students who are
coming back to school after a

292
00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:49,560
period of time or for those who
are just coming in right after

293
00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:52,840
high school and transitioning on
over because people are trying

294
00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:55,960
to be able to do more
flexibility and autonomy.

295
00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:58,840
They want to be able to do
exactly what they find is

296
00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:01,160
working for them and taking the
very best approach.

297
00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:04,000
And if you have gone through
anything with any form of higher

298
00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:07,120
education, which most of us have
done, no doubt you have taken

299
00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:09,720
some form of traditional course
and you're like this.

300
00:16:10,180 --> 00:16:13,140
This wasn't that great and it's
just like, yeah, that's that

301
00:16:13,140 --> 00:16:16,220
needs to shift.
We need to move away from this

302
00:16:16,420 --> 00:16:19,500
and now make sure that as we are
setting people up that we're

303
00:16:19,500 --> 00:16:22,340
setting them up for complete
success from all the different

304
00:16:22,340 --> 00:16:25,460
angles and perspectives about
the learning experience.

305
00:16:25,660 --> 00:16:28,340
So when I say learning
experience as far As for with

306
00:16:28,340 --> 00:16:30,500
someone like myself does inside
of this space.

307
00:16:30,910 --> 00:16:34,230
I do work with professors and
subject matter experts, where

308
00:16:34,230 --> 00:16:37,830
they are the experts in regards
to teaching the forward facing

309
00:16:37,830 --> 00:16:39,990
instruction.
They know about the content

310
00:16:40,070 --> 00:16:42,830
absolutely.
But thinking about things from

311
00:16:42,950 --> 00:16:45,750
the back end and thinking about
things from the students

312
00:16:45,750 --> 00:16:48,470
perspectives and making sure
that everything as far As for

313
00:16:48,470 --> 00:16:52,150
the learning and the design is
properly incorporated, that's

314
00:16:52,150 --> 00:16:54,430
huge.
And that's only going to grow,

315
00:16:54,430 --> 00:16:57,630
as I've now seen with like every
single university and college

316
00:16:57,630 --> 00:17:00,350
and institution hiring for more
and more instructional

317
00:17:00,350 --> 00:17:02,670
designers.
Which makes me very, very happy

318
00:17:02,670 --> 00:17:05,910
to be able to hear as someone
who took some courses online

319
00:17:05,910 --> 00:17:08,510
back in the day that were kind
of, they weren't so great.

320
00:17:08,750 --> 00:17:12,190
And I hope that we move away
from those and work towards

321
00:17:12,190 --> 00:17:14,550
these better, different types of
learning experiences.

322
00:17:14,750 --> 00:17:17,829
And the way to do it in my
opinion is to make sure that we

323
00:17:17,829 --> 00:17:20,910
do have the right support team,
hence the instructional

324
00:17:20,910 --> 00:17:24,510
designers, the advisors, the
professors and everyone else.

325
00:17:24,510 --> 00:17:26,869
And that's what's really going
to make this a unique experience

326
00:17:26,869 --> 00:17:28,910
for everybody.
So that's what I'm seeing in the

327
00:17:28,910 --> 00:17:31,900
higher education space.
Ollie, I'm half tempted to ask

328
00:17:31,900 --> 00:17:34,580
you about AI right now, but I'm
going to hold off because I know

329
00:17:34,580 --> 00:17:38,500
higher Ed has has quite the
issue with AI.

330
00:17:39,020 --> 00:17:41,580
And I know you you're going to
tell us a little bit about.

331
00:17:41,580 --> 00:17:43,100
I'm going to hold off.
I'm going to, I'm going to

332
00:17:43,100 --> 00:17:46,300
entice the audience a little
bit, but you.

333
00:17:46,500 --> 00:17:48,980
Mean to say that higher
education is afraid of change,

334
00:17:49,020 --> 00:17:51,620
Holly?
Is is that is that what you just

335
00:17:51,860 --> 00:17:54,150
supplied?
2 words?

336
00:17:54,230 --> 00:17:57,870
2 words make higher education
afraid of change, Academic

337
00:17:57,870 --> 00:18:01,950
freedom.
Yeah, education some areas is

338
00:18:01,990 --> 00:18:05,390
just afraid of change.
Yeah, absolutely.

339
00:18:07,310 --> 00:18:11,070
So Nadia, I mean and I want to
move to you and then I want to

340
00:18:11,070 --> 00:18:13,310
move the hiding next for the the
corporate space.

341
00:18:13,310 --> 00:18:16,390
So when we're thinking about
instructional design in the Ed

342
00:18:16,390 --> 00:18:20,540
tech industry and what's
happening there, any key

343
00:18:20,540 --> 00:18:24,340
insights or like challenges that
are going on that instructional

344
00:18:24,340 --> 00:18:27,060
designers are facing in that
space that you're in?

345
00:18:28,060 --> 00:18:31,180
Yeah.
So I'm going to kind of clump

346
00:18:31,220 --> 00:18:34,340
with like challenges and
opportunities, and I'm going to

347
00:18:34,340 --> 00:18:38,940
look at like a Venn Diagram.
There's so many opportunities

348
00:18:39,020 --> 00:18:44,900
and challenges, but stick out
close to me with the Ed Tech

349
00:18:45,740 --> 00:18:50,960
Field 3 is.
I would say the first one.

350
00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:54,200
The first challenge I think
would be Nadia.

351
00:18:54,240 --> 00:18:56,600
Well, I don't know what's
happening, but we're getting

352
00:18:56,600 --> 00:19:01,640
like, it's getting the the audio
is is like every other word is

353
00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:03,880
coming through.
It's like old school Verizon

354
00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:05,560
where he's like, can you hear me
now?

355
00:19:05,560 --> 00:19:09,120
I don't know if it's on
Riverside's end or your end, but

356
00:19:09,120 --> 00:19:14,320
the Internet was very choppy.
Let me see.

357
00:19:16,770 --> 00:19:20,930
Yeah, it says in your video shut
off, but that's OK Why don't we

358
00:19:20,930 --> 00:19:22,770
go over to Heidi and then we'll
come back to you.

359
00:19:22,770 --> 00:19:26,250
Is that OK?
Yeah, perfect.

360
00:19:26,930 --> 00:19:30,930
All right, Heidi, same similar
question like in the corporate

361
00:19:30,930 --> 00:19:33,690
space.
I'm new to this now and you're

362
00:19:33,690 --> 00:19:35,290
very much a veteran in this
space.

363
00:19:35,290 --> 00:19:37,250
And somebody I look up to, to
like what to do.

364
00:19:37,250 --> 00:19:39,290
Like I freak out.
And I'm like, I'll just read

365
00:19:39,290 --> 00:19:41,410
Heidi's post and I'll be OK.
I'll.

366
00:19:41,410 --> 00:19:45,420
I'll be fine.
So how it is instructional

367
00:19:45,420 --> 00:19:48,100
design in the corporate space.
What are some like best

368
00:19:48,100 --> 00:19:49,460
practices you could share with
people?

369
00:19:49,460 --> 00:19:51,940
What is that environment like?
Yeah, I.

370
00:19:51,940 --> 00:19:56,860
Think the further we get into
kind of this economic downturn

371
00:19:57,180 --> 00:19:59,940
and where we've got like these
tech companies laying off, I'm

372
00:19:59,940 --> 00:20:02,580
seeing L&D people getting laid
off every single day.

373
00:20:02,900 --> 00:20:07,180
I think it's more critical than
ever that we focus on the

374
00:20:07,180 --> 00:20:11,260
utility of what we're creating,
number one first, right?

375
00:20:11,500 --> 00:20:13,860
Because I think sometimes we
tend to.

376
00:20:14,710 --> 00:20:17,670
Want to just do what we're
comfortable with or do what we

377
00:20:17,670 --> 00:20:20,470
think is fun for us to make.
I know I was that kind of

378
00:20:20,470 --> 00:20:23,630
designer when I first started.
It's like, oh, I really want to

379
00:20:23,630 --> 00:20:26,510
create this cartoon and.
The game of vacation.

380
00:20:27,110 --> 00:20:29,510
Yeah, so that's what it will be
really fun.

381
00:20:29,510 --> 00:20:32,030
But like, I'm not really
thinking about whether it's

382
00:20:32,030 --> 00:20:34,670
useful.
And I think that we need to not

383
00:20:34,670 --> 00:20:38,710
only be concerned about what's
useful for our learners, but

384
00:20:38,710 --> 00:20:43,070
what's useful for the business.
And we really need to grow our

385
00:20:43,070 --> 00:20:46,750
business acumen and really be
working with the other teams and

386
00:20:46,750 --> 00:20:50,310
departments in our organization
if we want to keep our jobs

387
00:20:50,310 --> 00:20:53,430
moving forward.
Because L&D is a cost center.

388
00:20:53,430 --> 00:20:58,350
And if we struggle to prove that
value or that worth and we can't

389
00:20:58,350 --> 00:21:03,510
connect what we're doing to the
ROI or the organizational goals

390
00:21:03,510 --> 00:21:06,470
of the business, we're putting
ourselves up on the chopping

391
00:21:06,470 --> 00:21:09,270
block as well.
And so I think that you know to

392
00:21:09,270 --> 00:21:12,760
your point about bringing up AI,
like we should not be using AI

393
00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:15,080
for content creation.
I will die on that hill all day.

394
00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:19,160
Like we should be using it to
make our jobs more efficient,

395
00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:22,480
right, To help us with like
meetings to help us automate

396
00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:24,880
communications that go out after
a good training.

397
00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:28,400
You know like to help us with
those logistical or as I like to

398
00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:32,800
call them administrative BS
things that we do so that we can

399
00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:36,370
then focus on creating those
learning experiences And it

400
00:21:36,370 --> 00:21:40,050
works so much better and we can
get so much more trust and buy

401
00:21:40,050 --> 00:21:44,810
in from our organization when we
can do that and really show the

402
00:21:45,330 --> 00:21:49,090
you know value or the impact
that what we're creating has on

403
00:21:49,090 --> 00:21:51,370
the overall organization.
Yeah.

404
00:21:51,610 --> 00:21:55,890
And when I stepped into
corporate recently, I'm going on

405
00:21:55,890 --> 00:21:59,450
two years now and I've learned
so much and I I I still, I

406
00:21:59,450 --> 00:22:02,850
straddle both like higher Ed and
corporate because I still teach.

407
00:22:03,350 --> 00:22:06,790
But corporate is so much more.
No offense, higher Ed.

408
00:22:06,790 --> 00:22:09,110
No offense, Luke.
So much more innovative, and

409
00:22:09,110 --> 00:22:11,430
you're able to move things
forward, especially if the

410
00:22:11,430 --> 00:22:14,990
business wants it.
It's really easy to get things

411
00:22:14,990 --> 00:22:18,590
approved and hit that buy in.
And a lot of people there don't.

412
00:22:18,830 --> 00:22:21,110
They're like, I'm not, they're
not designing the learning

413
00:22:21,110 --> 00:22:23,950
experiences or working alongside
you say like higher Ed faculty

414
00:22:23,950 --> 00:22:26,230
who have this idea of what it's
supposed to be.

415
00:22:27,070 --> 00:22:30,310
So that is a very open and I
love that.

416
00:22:30,310 --> 00:22:32,710
About the corporate space, I
really love that.

417
00:22:32,710 --> 00:22:35,950
Yeah, you can really become like
the trusted expert, right?

418
00:22:35,950 --> 00:22:39,270
Like you can really become the
advisor in a different way that

419
00:22:39,270 --> 00:22:42,150
you can in higher Ed.
Because the people your subject

420
00:22:42,150 --> 00:22:45,870
matter experts think they know
at least a little bit about what

421
00:22:45,870 --> 00:22:48,750
you do, right?
Yeah, absolutely.

422
00:22:48,750 --> 00:22:52,870
Now let's go back to Nadia.
We we love to see your face.

423
00:22:53,650 --> 00:22:57,290
The the video came back, let's
go back to Ed Tech.

424
00:22:57,290 --> 00:22:59,530
Tell us a little bit more about
what that looks like from an

425
00:22:59,530 --> 00:23:03,170
instructional design perspective
and anything that you've

426
00:23:03,170 --> 00:23:05,730
experienced over the years in
the industry as an ID?

427
00:23:06,290 --> 00:23:08,890
Can you hear me?
We can hear you.

428
00:23:08,890 --> 00:23:11,370
Yay.
I'm trying to get rid of that

429
00:23:11,370 --> 00:23:15,650
but it's not working.
I had the echo turned off but I

430
00:23:15,650 --> 00:23:17,850
don't know it it's not echoing
on my end.

431
00:23:18,410 --> 00:23:21,530
OK, poo poo.
So.

432
00:23:22,500 --> 00:23:24,900
I'm in thinking about
opportunity challenges.

433
00:23:24,900 --> 00:23:28,300
There's there's plenty of
opportunities and challenges

434
00:23:28,300 --> 00:23:30,780
within the editing space.
Do you hear me?

435
00:23:31,140 --> 00:23:36,340
Is it?
Oh, it it went in and out again.

436
00:23:36,700 --> 00:23:38,380
I'm not.
I think it's the echo that's

437
00:23:38,380 --> 00:23:41,060
causing this because it's
looking fine on my.

438
00:23:41,100 --> 00:23:42,860
So there, Nadia.
Oh jeez.

439
00:23:47,740 --> 00:23:50,300
Oh no.
Isn't technology awesome?

440
00:23:50,890 --> 00:23:53,610
Yeah, we're having an
instructional design chat and

441
00:23:53,810 --> 00:23:57,210
you know, technology in the
Internet is telling us that

442
00:23:57,210 --> 00:24:00,570
we're living back in the 9th
1995 with dial up.

443
00:24:01,610 --> 00:24:03,850
It happened to me today too on
an Amazon meeting.

444
00:24:03,850 --> 00:24:07,210
My whole thing cut out.
I was like, this is ridiculous

445
00:24:07,210 --> 00:24:09,210
in 2023.
Luke is I.

446
00:24:09,650 --> 00:24:11,610
Did a can.
You can you see me?

447
00:24:13,690 --> 00:24:17,170
I can't see you and I can only
see Heidi and Luke and your

448
00:24:17,170 --> 00:24:19,810
video has gone away
unfortunately.

449
00:24:21,110 --> 00:24:23,110
Because I can't see Luke and I
can only see.

450
00:24:23,190 --> 00:24:26,790
Got a little bit of delay.
So it's weird.

451
00:24:29,670 --> 00:24:33,310
It's it's every other word that
we're getting.

452
00:24:35,590 --> 00:24:37,910
OK, all right, we'll we'll try
to come back because you did

453
00:24:37,910 --> 00:24:41,630
come back and it was very clear
and your image was really clear

454
00:24:41,630 --> 00:24:44,990
and it was, it was flowing.
But I want to move into some of

455
00:24:44,990 --> 00:24:46,750
the other questions that we
have.

456
00:24:47,360 --> 00:24:50,080
And we we're talking about
technology and like as

457
00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:53,800
technology is continuing to
evolve especially with AI and

458
00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:57,400
different things and Luke in the
higher Ed space, what are

459
00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:00,440
instructional designers doing?
What should they be aware of

460
00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:02,240
when it comes to these sort of
technologies?

461
00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:04,200
How are we going to help people
navigate this?

462
00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:10,320
So there is a way I'm trying to
carefully phrase these things AI

463
00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:13,320
to me.
By the way, it is a Kickstarter

464
00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:16,840
for ideas.
As Heidi was saying, AI is not

465
00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:19,320
going to be that.
You ask it to be able to do

466
00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:22,400
something, it then gives you a
perfect answer and you're like

467
00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:26,240
done publish like send it out to
the masses.

468
00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:29,720
We can't rely on AI in that type
of capacity.

469
00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:33,760
So to me, if I'm using ChatGPT
or Google Bart or Dolly or any

470
00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:36,360
of the other different types of
various forms right now are

471
00:25:36,360 --> 00:25:38,880
producing these different types
of elements to help you out with

472
00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:42,190
your job, it's fantastic.
But at the same time, we need to

473
00:25:42,190 --> 00:25:44,110
recognize the limitations about
everything.

474
00:25:44,150 --> 00:25:47,310
There is always going to be a
human element from an empathetic

475
00:25:47,310 --> 00:25:49,590
perspective, a critical thinking
perspective.

476
00:25:49,790 --> 00:25:52,910
You need someone to make sure
that whatever you are giving to

477
00:25:52,910 --> 00:25:55,830
ChatGPT, or Google bar, that it
actually is giving you the

478
00:25:55,830 --> 00:25:58,950
correct types of things that you
were looking to be able to see

479
00:25:58,950 --> 00:26:00,910
and do.
And certainly we've seen plenty

480
00:26:00,910 --> 00:26:04,390
of cases where this was not the
case and there was a whole bunch

481
00:26:04,390 --> 00:26:07,710
of different forms of issues.
I think now everyone recognizes

482
00:26:07,710 --> 00:26:10,910
that AI is so strange because
we've only been talking about.

483
00:26:10,990 --> 00:26:13,190
ChatGPT for about not even a
year.

484
00:26:13,430 --> 00:26:15,590
It's it's been out for longer,
don't get me wrong.

485
00:26:15,590 --> 00:26:18,630
But I feel like since last
December we were kind of talking

486
00:26:18,630 --> 00:26:20,550
about it and then it kind of
just like blew up on the

487
00:26:20,550 --> 00:26:24,630
Internet and around March ish or
so and then that's when we all

488
00:26:24,630 --> 00:26:27,110
started to recognize it.
So everyone's aware about fake

489
00:26:27,110 --> 00:26:29,710
citations.
But of course now GPT 4 and

490
00:26:29,710 --> 00:26:31,230
Google Bar are connected to the
Internet.

491
00:26:31,230 --> 00:26:34,190
So that's kind of going away
from that type of perspective.

492
00:26:34,570 --> 00:26:37,330
But overall, now what I'm seeing
from AI, which is so

493
00:26:37,330 --> 00:26:41,090
interesting, is a new ways to
being able to use it.

494
00:26:41,370 --> 00:26:43,690
Right now I've been creating
different forms of simulations

495
00:26:43,690 --> 00:26:45,730
from scratch.
I never thought that was

496
00:26:45,730 --> 00:26:47,810
possible.
Like that is mind boggling to

497
00:26:47,810 --> 00:26:49,050
me.
I was listening to some

498
00:26:49,050 --> 00:26:51,090
instructional designers,
aspiring instructional

499
00:26:51,090 --> 00:26:52,790
designers.
And they were saying how great

500
00:26:52,790 --> 00:26:56,230
it would be if we could actually
practice going through a mock up

501
00:26:56,230 --> 00:26:59,150
type of a interview for an
instructional design job.

502
00:26:59,390 --> 00:27:01,350
So I was like, all right, I can
do this.

503
00:27:01,390 --> 00:27:05,230
I created some feedback, some
guidelines, use ChatGPT and all

504
00:27:05,230 --> 00:27:08,150
of a sudden I have a simulation
about how to go through this for

505
00:27:08,150 --> 00:27:12,270
an interview process, which is
like, OK, this is cool.

506
00:27:12,630 --> 00:27:15,910
So instead of me trying to be
able to pay X amount of dollars

507
00:27:15,910 --> 00:27:18,630
for customization from an
organization, if I can start

508
00:27:18,630 --> 00:27:20,950
producing things on my own at
this capacity.

509
00:27:21,330 --> 00:27:24,210
You know, that's pretty game
changing from a higher education

510
00:27:24,210 --> 00:27:26,090
perspective.
One of the things though, if you

511
00:27:26,090 --> 00:27:28,450
are an ID and you're just
looking for a way to be able to

512
00:27:28,450 --> 00:27:31,330
start with this, certainly I
have a lot of content out there

513
00:27:31,330 --> 00:27:33,850
about that on on YouTube and
podcasts and stuff.

514
00:27:34,130 --> 00:27:37,490
But what I want you to be able
to try to do is just to

515
00:27:37,490 --> 00:27:40,650
experiment with AI because it's
different.

516
00:27:40,650 --> 00:27:43,010
It is not what you think.
If there's a lot of people who

517
00:27:43,010 --> 00:27:46,130
I've seen online who have
essentially said I did this one

518
00:27:46,130 --> 00:27:49,130
thing, it didn't do what I
wanted to do, I'm done.

519
00:27:49,500 --> 00:27:51,820
And it's like, that's cool.
That's not how the world is

520
00:27:51,820 --> 00:27:53,620
going to work.
It's not just going to magically

521
00:27:53,620 --> 00:27:56,220
go away just because of the A1
failed attempt.

522
00:27:56,420 --> 00:27:58,900
You need to be able to do more
of prompt engineering with

523
00:27:58,900 --> 00:28:01,740
learning more about how to
really use this, because AI is

524
00:28:01,740 --> 00:28:03,300
already in exactly everything
that we do.

525
00:28:03,790 --> 00:28:05,870
And I don't know why.
For some people, they're like,

526
00:28:05,990 --> 00:28:08,430
what do you mean it's in
Grammarly and it's on my

527
00:28:08,430 --> 00:28:11,430
smartphone and it's doing, it's
like it's it's here, like it's

528
00:28:11,430 --> 00:28:14,150
not going away.
But we need to be smart about

529
00:28:14,150 --> 00:28:16,630
how we use this by far for
everything.

530
00:28:16,830 --> 00:28:19,510
And from higher education's
perspective, one thing that we

531
00:28:19,510 --> 00:28:22,630
have not cracked the code yet is
talking about from a plagiarism

532
00:28:22,630 --> 00:28:25,510
perspective.
There's still no way to detect.

533
00:28:25,550 --> 00:28:27,790
100.
Percent certainty of plagiarism.

534
00:28:27,790 --> 00:28:30,030
So that's a huge thing with
higher Ed right now.

535
00:28:30,710 --> 00:28:33,090
Yeah.
I think that that kind of makes

536
00:28:33,090 --> 00:28:36,370
people shiver a little bit in
higher education, but also too

537
00:28:37,010 --> 00:28:39,570
on the other side of that.
You have to create these

538
00:28:39,570 --> 00:28:43,650
authentic types of assessments
where you're the learning

539
00:28:43,650 --> 00:28:46,130
experience is something that
where you're tapping into what

540
00:28:46,130 --> 00:28:49,730
the learners know it's it's real
world applicable and I feel like

541
00:28:49,730 --> 00:28:52,930
sometimes like writing papers
and stuff while that's important

542
00:28:52,930 --> 00:28:56,250
if you're continuing your
studies like other things.

543
00:28:56,750 --> 00:29:00,830
Can substitute for that like.
So yeah, so thinking about it

544
00:29:00,830 --> 00:29:03,150
from an instructional design
perspective, it's changing the

545
00:29:03,150 --> 00:29:05,710
assessment, which is one of the
things that we certainly do and

546
00:29:05,710 --> 00:29:08,790
thinking about from learning
experiences is making sure that

547
00:29:08,790 --> 00:29:11,110
our learners are on track.
And this is of course how we do

548
00:29:11,110 --> 00:29:13,590
this with assessments and then
providing guidance and support

549
00:29:13,590 --> 00:29:15,870
from there.
He's talking with a composition

550
00:29:15,870 --> 00:29:17,710
teacher the everyday.
And he was asking is this like

551
00:29:17,710 --> 00:29:19,990
well how do I do this if AI
teach about writing?

552
00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:22,240
So what What do I do?
And I was like, well, you should

553
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:25,680
do what I do with my students
because many I DS right now are

554
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:29,720
like, it's going to replace me.
I'm like, no, it's not there

555
00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:31,840
yet.
It can produce things but

556
00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:34,960
doesn't mean that they're good.
So I told the instructor to be

557
00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:38,080
able to do that as well.
Was this like have ChatGPT

558
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:42,440
create for you an article and
then I want your class to be

559
00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:44,320
able to essentially go and tear
it apart?

560
00:29:44,660 --> 00:29:47,140
Talk about how it didn't write
this thing correctly or how it

561
00:29:47,140 --> 00:29:49,260
didn't cite this properly or
anything like that.

562
00:29:49,260 --> 00:29:51,980
Because I do that with my ID
students, where we create

563
00:29:51,980 --> 00:29:54,220
different forms of syllabi and
outlines and whatnot.

564
00:29:54,220 --> 00:29:57,020
And I say look at it from a
universal design for learning

565
00:29:57,020 --> 00:29:59,220
perspective.
Did it do things correctly?

566
00:29:59,220 --> 00:30:01,540
Are there other different areas
we can pursue to be able to

567
00:30:01,540 --> 00:30:04,060
improve upon these things?
And there's always ways for us

568
00:30:04,060 --> 00:30:06,460
to be able to do that.
So it's getting more creative

569
00:30:06,540 --> 00:30:09,500
but being able to do so, but
that's the direction we need to

570
00:30:09,500 --> 00:30:13,140
go in.
Absolutely 100% agree with you.

571
00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:17,160
100% Heidi what is this doing
for corporate?

572
00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:21,560
I mean I'm getting the thing if
I and I don't do this.

573
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:25,080
I'm not saying I do this.
This is a hypothetical situation

574
00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:28,360
go on my Amazon computer
ChatGPT.

575
00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:31,320
It has me acknowledge that I'm
not sharing any confidential

576
00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:36,480
information if I'm on ChatGPT or
if I'm, you know, trying to like

577
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:40,520
how is this going to impact us
as I it's it's a similar problem

578
00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:43,940
to plagiarism, right?
But it's just in that it it's

579
00:30:43,940 --> 00:30:47,820
like way heavier, right?
Because like you know,

580
00:30:47,820 --> 00:30:51,500
plagiarism doesn't involve multi
$1,000,000 lawsuits.

581
00:30:52,020 --> 00:30:55,620
You know, sometimes I think it
should as a former comp teacher,

582
00:30:55,820 --> 00:30:59,380
maybe it should.
But you know, like you have a

583
00:30:59,380 --> 00:31:02,540
lot of companies saying don't
use it, right?

584
00:31:02,540 --> 00:31:07,430
And that's like the general, the
let's not approach it with a

585
00:31:07,430 --> 00:31:10,390
sense of curiosity and see what
it can be for us.

586
00:31:10,390 --> 00:31:14,710
It's like a hard no right now,
right, Like it's like don't use

587
00:31:14,710 --> 00:31:18,230
it because you can't protect our
IP, we can't protect our company

588
00:31:18,230 --> 00:31:21,590
information and our proprietary.
So yeah, like to your point,

589
00:31:21,630 --> 00:31:24,870
when you go on the Amazon chat,
JPT from your work computer,

590
00:31:24,870 --> 00:31:27,030
it's like, hey, don't share
anything.

591
00:31:28,230 --> 00:31:31,590
And so I think that it's a
little bit, it depends on the

592
00:31:31,590 --> 00:31:34,150
company too, right?
You know, I most recently worked

593
00:31:34,150 --> 00:31:38,590
for a smaller organization and
so they were more open to the

594
00:31:38,590 --> 00:31:42,110
idea and weren't saying like,
hey, don't use it, but it was

595
00:31:42,110 --> 00:31:44,390
just like whoa, we don't know
what to think about this.

596
00:31:44,390 --> 00:31:48,110
And so, you know, I think to
Luke's point, like, I don't

597
00:31:48,110 --> 00:31:50,550
think we need to be worried
about it taking our jobs yet,

598
00:31:50,550 --> 00:31:52,550
right?
Like the, the core, the

599
00:31:52,550 --> 00:31:55,590
corporate sense is like, whoa,
this is terrifying, right?

600
00:31:55,590 --> 00:31:58,350
And they're still not even
warmed up to the idea yet.

601
00:31:58,350 --> 00:32:01,830
And so if we can find ways to
use it, it's not going to

602
00:32:01,910 --> 00:32:05,430
hopefully, hopefully it's not
going to be to like, pump out

603
00:32:05,430 --> 00:32:07,110
courses.
Like, I've seen some of those,

604
00:32:07,110 --> 00:32:10,550
right, Like the AI, let's pump
out an entire course and like,

605
00:32:10,550 --> 00:32:14,270
oh, here's an I actually just
saw one on Tiktok that was

606
00:32:14,270 --> 00:32:20,770
actually using material off of
YouTube and then charging people

607
00:32:20,770 --> 00:32:22,770
for it.
And it's like material that

608
00:32:22,770 --> 00:32:25,610
friends of mine that are L&D
creators give out for free on

609
00:32:25,610 --> 00:32:27,690
YouTube.
And they're like, whoa, hold on,

610
00:32:28,090 --> 00:32:32,130
this is not OK.
So I think there's there's like

611
00:32:32,130 --> 00:32:36,850
a lot of legal layers to it yet
that we need to sort out before

612
00:32:36,890 --> 00:32:38,450
people are going to be able to
use it.

613
00:32:39,450 --> 00:32:42,570
Unfortunately, yeah, me too.
I definitely think that, like

614
00:32:42,570 --> 00:32:45,610
for generic things like
outlining and stuff, that's what

615
00:32:45,610 --> 00:32:46,770
really helps.
Ideas.

616
00:32:47,330 --> 00:32:50,170
Brainstorm ideas.
Yeah, sometimes I'm not good

617
00:32:50,170 --> 00:32:53,650
with my words and I know what I
want to say, but ChatGPT says

618
00:32:53,650 --> 00:32:57,130
it's so much better than I do.
Yeah, yeah, for sure.

619
00:32:58,330 --> 00:32:59,930
Yeah.
Well, I want to take a moment

620
00:32:59,930 --> 00:33:03,130
and I actually want to pause and
I want to highlight our sponsor

621
00:33:03,130 --> 00:33:05,050
of this event.
So ispring.

622
00:33:05,650 --> 00:33:07,930
Is wonderful.
They sponsor our podcast quite

623
00:33:07,930 --> 00:33:12,050
frequently and we're so excited
that they they have the, they

624
00:33:12,050 --> 00:33:14,930
have sponsored this event for us
with all these lovely

625
00:33:14,930 --> 00:33:17,970
individuals.
So thank you Ispring and I

626
00:33:17,970 --> 00:33:22,130
definitely encourage all of you
to go out and check out Ispring.

627
00:33:22,130 --> 00:33:25,050
I'll put a link in the chat and
I'll put it out when we show

628
00:33:25,050 --> 00:33:27,330
this on YouTube and in the show
notes when this becomes an

629
00:33:27,330 --> 00:33:31,930
episode.
So Ispring has over 60,000

630
00:33:31,930 --> 00:33:34,690
clients in more than 150
countries.

631
00:33:35,060 --> 00:33:37,140
And they've been in the market
for 22 years.

632
00:33:37,140 --> 00:33:41,620
That's unbelievable.
So everything I spring, I use

633
00:33:41,620 --> 00:33:44,540
it, I love it.
I do lots of webinars with them.

634
00:33:44,540 --> 00:33:48,100
I know that Luke's come across
it, Nadia and Heidi, it's a

635
00:33:48,100 --> 00:33:49,820
really great tools to go check
it out.

636
00:33:51,380 --> 00:33:54,700
All right, let's talk a little
bit about technology.

637
00:33:54,700 --> 00:33:57,900
So when you're jumping into this
instructional design role and

638
00:33:57,900 --> 00:34:00,260
we're going to kind of go
towards the the career path a

639
00:34:00,260 --> 00:34:02,890
little bit more.
People have a common

640
00:34:02,890 --> 00:34:05,450
misconception.
I feel like that if you know all

641
00:34:05,450 --> 00:34:07,930
this technology, you're going to
be a great instructional

642
00:34:07,930 --> 00:34:11,090
designer.
Like if you know Articulate.

643
00:34:11,090 --> 00:34:15,409
I Spring, Blackboard, Moodle,
Canvas, Captivate, Adobe

644
00:34:15,409 --> 00:34:18,250
products like I'm going to be
the best instructional designer

645
00:34:18,250 --> 00:34:19,850
ever.
Canva, Graphic Design.

646
00:34:19,850 --> 00:34:22,570
Luke, you're a graphic designer,
you are a graphic designer.

647
00:34:22,570 --> 00:34:25,570
I can tell you do all the the
fancy things on the web.

648
00:34:27,300 --> 00:34:28,980
Skills.
Have really gone down over the

649
00:34:28,980 --> 00:34:31,620
years.
Definitely not as good as I was

650
00:34:31,620 --> 00:34:34,900
in college.
Is this the case?

651
00:34:34,900 --> 00:34:37,580
Do you have to knowing all this?
Does that make you a good

652
00:34:37,580 --> 00:34:39,460
instructional designer?
God, no.

653
00:34:39,900 --> 00:34:41,580
Absolutely not.
Just no.

654
00:34:41,900 --> 00:34:42,980
No.
That was the answer.

655
00:34:43,500 --> 00:34:46,659
Next question, Heidi.
No to explain more about that

656
00:34:46,659 --> 00:34:48,960
though is that.
There are so many different

657
00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:51,120
types of mom.
Let me back up for a second.

658
00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:53,320
When you think about an
instructional designer, we have

659
00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:55,679
a couple of different types of
paths and technology is

660
00:34:55,679 --> 00:34:57,760
certainly one of them.
But what makes up an

661
00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:00,360
instructional designer?
We have the learning expert, we

662
00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:03,160
have the project manager, we
have the researcher and of

663
00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:05,320
course indeed we do have the
technologist.

664
00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:07,680
But also I would say that we
also have a fifth element which

665
00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:09,800
is like the relationship
manager, those who work with

666
00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:12,320
other people.
Instructional design is a people

667
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:14,640
first job.
We are people focused.

668
00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:16,160
We work with people all the
time.

669
00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:19,080
There's so much collaboration,
working with subject matter

670
00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:22,080
experts, being able to interview
and talk with potential

671
00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:24,200
learners, coming into our
courses and working with

672
00:35:24,240 --> 00:35:26,240
engineering and support and you
name it.

673
00:35:26,240 --> 00:35:27,640
We're constantly working with
people.

674
00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:31,120
So there is a huge emphasis on
like, yes, we know how learning

675
00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:34,880
works, but also people is like
the big, big thing about what is

676
00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:39,280
it that we do decision making,
influencing, negotiation, all

677
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:40,640
those different types of
elements.

678
00:35:40,990 --> 00:35:44,870
That is like is step one for
everything when you're thinking

679
00:35:44,870 --> 00:35:47,710
about from the tools
perspective, whatever the

680
00:35:47,710 --> 00:35:51,030
project is going to call for,
that's the tool you should be

681
00:35:51,030 --> 00:35:52,710
using.
Where if we're taking the

682
00:35:52,710 --> 00:35:55,430
approach, Holly that you just
mentioned is that the tool comes

683
00:35:55,430 --> 00:35:58,470
first and then you build around
the tool and that's not the

684
00:35:58,470 --> 00:36:00,150
proper way of being able to do
so.

685
00:36:00,390 --> 00:36:03,110
Do we have tools that we'd use
and we identify because the

686
00:36:03,110 --> 00:36:05,030
organization uses them, then
sure.

687
00:36:05,270 --> 00:36:07,390
Of course you you mentioned
about a whole bunch of and not

688
00:36:07,390 --> 00:36:09,510
to dismiss any of the tools you
mentioned.

689
00:36:09,830 --> 00:36:12,270
Oh, those are fabulous tools.
And I'm not saying that, but

690
00:36:12,270 --> 00:36:14,350
like, as far As for them not
being great or anything of a

691
00:36:14,350 --> 00:36:19,030
sort, but every organization has
a license to use X, so therefore

692
00:36:19,030 --> 00:36:20,870
the ID is going to be using
that.

693
00:36:20,950 --> 00:36:24,670
And that's plenty fine and OK.
But I know it's super confusing

694
00:36:24,670 --> 00:36:27,430
for the new IDs out there
because you read a job posting.

695
00:36:27,590 --> 00:36:30,150
Depending upon which one you
read, it could have had listed

696
00:36:30,150 --> 00:36:33,710
any of the ones that Holly just
described and then some, but

697
00:36:33,750 --> 00:36:36,790
often times they're actually
competitors of one another.

698
00:36:37,150 --> 00:36:40,630
So it doesn't make sense to know
all 10 things that all do the

699
00:36:40,630 --> 00:36:43,030
exact same thing.
So that's kind of like this.

700
00:36:43,070 --> 00:36:44,950
Weird.
I'm glad you said that.

701
00:36:44,950 --> 00:36:46,350
Yeah.
Yeah, they all do.

702
00:36:46,550 --> 00:36:48,590
Like especially learning
management systems, like they

703
00:36:48,630 --> 00:36:51,510
all do the same stuff, just in
different ways.

704
00:36:52,110 --> 00:36:55,350
It it it's really like if you
know one and you know the basics

705
00:36:55,350 --> 00:36:57,910
of 1 and how to do stuff on the
back end like you're going to be

706
00:36:57,910 --> 00:36:59,590
able to figure it out in the
next for sure.

707
00:36:59,910 --> 00:37:03,030
I I can train anyone to use
blackboard or canvas.

708
00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:08,280
That's that's no problem.
Where I find the struggle is no,

709
00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:11,560
We're thinking more about how do
you collaborate with SME's, How

710
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:15,960
do you pivot when Plan ABC and D
all fail and you're on Plan E

711
00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:18,960
and you're trying to be able to
go from there, You know, it's

712
00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:21,240
that innovation, it's that
flexibility, it's that

713
00:37:21,240 --> 00:37:24,160
relentlessness like that's
something that you definitely

714
00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:26,800
need inside of a designer, and
that's harder to find.

715
00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:31,010
So yeah, absolutely.
I saw Nadia back for a minute.

716
00:37:31,010 --> 00:37:32,050
I want to see if we can hear
you.

717
00:37:32,050 --> 00:37:34,290
Nadia, I don't want to leave you
out of this.

718
00:37:34,290 --> 00:37:36,890
You have so much to add.
That's why you're here.

719
00:37:37,290 --> 00:37:39,570
I'm in time out.
Can you hear me?

720
00:37:43,490 --> 00:37:47,090
You're you're in you like Tran
you you got your time machine

721
00:37:47,090 --> 00:37:51,010
and went back you know it's
October 25th, 1988.

722
00:37:51,010 --> 00:37:52,890
Isn't that what Back to the
Future is?

723
00:37:52,970 --> 00:37:55,890
That's the little where he goes
back or two or whatever.

724
00:37:56,330 --> 00:37:59,170
I I just.
I have so much to add to this

725
00:37:59,170 --> 00:38:03,570
space.
Yeah, it is lagging still.

726
00:38:03,730 --> 00:38:06,850
All right.
All right.

727
00:38:06,850 --> 00:38:10,050
Heidi, tell us about technology
and how that impacts the

728
00:38:10,050 --> 00:38:13,690
corporate space.
And like, if I know, like, I

729
00:38:13,690 --> 00:38:15,610
can't tell you how many LinkedIn
messages I get.

730
00:38:15,610 --> 00:38:19,130
Like, if I learn Articulate, if
I learn Camtasia, if I learn

731
00:38:19,130 --> 00:38:21,690
Adobe, is that what I need to
do?

732
00:38:21,690 --> 00:38:23,890
Do I need to buy all this?
Do I need to get all this to be

733
00:38:23,890 --> 00:38:27,470
a great instructional designer?
I think one of the most common

734
00:38:27,470 --> 00:38:31,230
misconceptions is that you also
need to build a website for your

735
00:38:31,230 --> 00:38:34,710
portfolio as an instructional
designer like I've gotten by for

736
00:38:34,710 --> 00:38:36,990
years with a Google Drive
folder.

737
00:38:37,350 --> 00:38:42,430
Listen because web development
shouldn't be a skill you need

738
00:38:42,430 --> 00:38:44,390
unless there's a reason for it,
right?

739
00:38:44,390 --> 00:38:47,350
Like Luke's saying, like there's
a reason for every kind of tool

740
00:38:48,030 --> 00:38:52,030
I haven't need to know web
development or any kind of

741
00:38:52,030 --> 00:38:55,320
programming languages for.
I love that.

742
00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:58,640
That scares me.
That scares me.

743
00:38:59,240 --> 00:39:03,440
So much for for all all of the
job stands.

744
00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:08,080
One random, not normal contract
that I did Once Upon a time,

745
00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:10,040
right?
And I didn't even really have to

746
00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:13,000
know coding for that, it just
was taught how because I was

747
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:16,920
working in an LMS that didn't
have a front end so I had to

748
00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:19,200
like program everything and copy
and paste.

749
00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:23,240
But outside of that, like, you
don't need to build a website

750
00:39:23,240 --> 00:39:26,690
even, right?
And a good instructional

751
00:39:26,690 --> 00:39:30,210
designer can be a good
instructional designer with a

752
00:39:30,210 --> 00:39:34,650
notebook and a pen, right?
And it's kind of it's hard to

753
00:39:34,650 --> 00:39:36,770
understand, especially when
you're brand new and you're

754
00:39:36,770 --> 00:39:40,610
aspiring and you don't know the
processes or you don't know what

755
00:39:40,610 --> 00:39:42,810
a needs assessment is, or you
don't know what a Smee is.

756
00:39:43,010 --> 00:39:44,650
But let me break it down for you
like this.

757
00:39:45,170 --> 00:39:47,970
If you wanted to become a
photographer and the only thing

758
00:39:47,970 --> 00:39:51,010
that you were fussing over is
what kind of camera to buy,

759
00:39:51,500 --> 00:39:54,700
yeah, you could go out and buy
the most expensive camera and

760
00:39:54,700 --> 00:39:57,860
there's probably a good chance
that you'll take some good

761
00:39:57,860 --> 00:40:00,820
photos.
But what would be even better is

762
00:40:00,820 --> 00:40:04,220
if you could learn things like
composition, or how lighting

763
00:40:04,220 --> 00:40:07,820
effects things, or how to
position people in a certain way

764
00:40:08,020 --> 00:40:11,220
that's going to make the photo
look amazing no matter whether

765
00:40:11,220 --> 00:40:14,500
you're using a Polaroid or a
digital camera.

766
00:40:14,500 --> 00:40:17,020
We're all millennials here like
we used to use back when we were

767
00:40:17,020 --> 00:40:20,420
teenagers and in college used to
carry out with us everywhere.

768
00:40:20,810 --> 00:40:24,530
Or a $15,000 camera, right?
Mm hmm.

769
00:40:26,810 --> 00:40:30,050
I love it that you put it in
that perspective because driving

770
00:40:30,050 --> 00:40:33,610
the Toyota Corolla can be just
as good as driving the Range

771
00:40:33,610 --> 00:40:38,050
Rover with instructional design.
Yeah, I mean, people do so many

772
00:40:38,050 --> 00:40:41,290
creative things with One of our
leadership principles at Amazon

773
00:40:41,290 --> 00:40:43,920
is Be Frugal.
And we have done so many great

774
00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:48,520
things just being frugal and so
many great projects and things

775
00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:51,720
have come out of of that aspect
like you don't need the most

776
00:40:51,720 --> 00:40:55,320
expensive piece of software to
do something wonderful and have

777
00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:57,280
a great learning experience.
Appreciate.

778
00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:00,400
It it makes you become a better
designer, it does.

779
00:41:01,240 --> 00:41:03,840
Yeah, I don't have a budget for
this.

780
00:41:04,240 --> 00:41:07,560
What am I going to do?
It's like a really crafty.

781
00:41:07,940 --> 00:41:10,820
And that's and that's really
where, like the design element

782
00:41:10,820 --> 00:41:14,420
shines real like what learning
strategy can I use on a budget,

783
00:41:14,420 --> 00:41:17,260
which is not going to cost me
anything, but I can still make

784
00:41:17,260 --> 00:41:19,700
this awesome and like that's a
fun challenge.

785
00:41:19,780 --> 00:41:22,060
That's.
I like that about it really,

786
00:41:22,060 --> 00:41:23,140
too.
What's?

787
00:41:23,340 --> 00:41:26,020
How's this going to work?
Yeah, How's this all going to

788
00:41:26,020 --> 00:41:27,660
piece?
How are we going to piece meal

789
00:41:27,660 --> 00:41:29,740
this together?
I haven't seen a technology yet.

790
00:41:29,980 --> 00:41:33,060
So for all you founders and
people listening, that does it

791
00:41:33,060 --> 00:41:35,380
all that we need to do as
instructional designers.

792
00:41:35,860 --> 00:41:38,380
I have not seen a piece.
It's all like piece meal.

793
00:41:38,380 --> 00:41:39,940
You have to go to this one for
that.

794
00:41:39,940 --> 00:41:41,260
You have to go to this one for
this.

795
00:41:41,860 --> 00:41:46,940
So I'm not going to mention any
names, don't want to get people

796
00:41:46,940 --> 00:41:50,060
in trouble.
So I want to shift a little bit

797
00:41:50,060 --> 00:41:54,100
and talk about one of the the
topics that I'm finding,

798
00:41:54,100 --> 00:41:57,860
especially in the corporate
space, that isn't as focused on

799
00:41:57,860 --> 00:42:01,460
as much as it should be or in my
my experience is accessibility.

800
00:42:02,340 --> 00:42:04,740
Like when it comes to
accessibility, and this is

801
00:42:04,740 --> 00:42:07,260
something that's pretty
important because there's laws

802
00:42:07,260 --> 00:42:09,500
and different acts and things
that surround accessibility.

803
00:42:09,500 --> 00:42:13,580
I know in higher Ed there was,
you know, a big, there's a big

804
00:42:13,580 --> 00:42:18,860
push for accessibility and and
there's different

805
00:42:18,860 --> 00:42:20,860
recommendations and their
support service has been

806
00:42:20,860 --> 00:42:23,620
incorporated.
It's a little bit absent, you

807
00:42:23,620 --> 00:42:27,060
know.
So I I I've kind of trained my

808
00:42:27,060 --> 00:42:29,740
team, but Heidi and definitely
Luke going to hear from you

809
00:42:29,740 --> 00:42:33,560
about accessibility.
How does that work in corporate

810
00:42:33,560 --> 00:42:36,000
and what can we do to make it
better so that everybody can

811
00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:37,920
have access?
Yeah.

812
00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:41,120
So I think it's really, it's
been really difficult for me to

813
00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:46,120
argue for anything accessible as
part of internal L&D teams where

814
00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:50,240
I've really been able to
leverage just like the utmost

815
00:42:50,240 --> 00:42:55,040
care for accessibility is for in
in customer education which is

816
00:42:55,040 --> 00:43:00,040
where I've most recently worked.
Because you don't know your

817
00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:04,640
customers abilities, right, You
don't know what they're running

818
00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:07,640
into on a daily basis.
There might be customers using

819
00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:10,880
their product, using your
product that can't use a mouse,

820
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:12,760
right.
Like, I think it's something

821
00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:18,170
some, you know, amazing number,
like 30% of people, well, at

822
00:43:18,170 --> 00:43:21,850
some point, whether it's a
temporary injury or otherwise

823
00:43:21,850 --> 00:43:23,730
not be able to use a mouse,
right.

824
00:43:23,970 --> 00:43:26,890
And so, like, there are so many,
so many people are color blind,

825
00:43:26,930 --> 00:43:28,570
right.
And we see these like terrible

826
00:43:28,570 --> 00:43:32,090
font jobs, right, that are just
hard for me to read and I'm not

827
00:43:32,090 --> 00:43:36,450
color blind, right.
And so I think that it really

828
00:43:36,450 --> 00:43:39,850
depends on the organization's
commitment to accessibility.

829
00:43:40,130 --> 00:43:43,970
But if you can find that and you
can embrace that, you know the

830
00:43:43,970 --> 00:43:48,830
unfortunate part is that it
automatically rules out some

831
00:43:48,830 --> 00:43:54,270
authoring tools, some LMSS to be
100% accessible.

832
00:43:54,430 --> 00:43:58,350
Some of those tools get kind of
ousted immediately if you're

833
00:43:58,350 --> 00:44:01,030
really focused on heavy
accessibility.

834
00:44:01,630 --> 00:44:03,390
Yeah.
And I think it's something, it's

835
00:44:03,390 --> 00:44:05,590
something definitely like you're
saying, it's a priority.

836
00:44:05,830 --> 00:44:08,350
It's something to consider when
you're purchasing a tool or a

837
00:44:08,350 --> 00:44:11,440
system or something.
And I know higher Ed, you have

838
00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:13,640
to loop what you're about to
talk about.

839
00:44:13,640 --> 00:44:15,600
You have to jump through some
hoops and get some things

840
00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:17,960
approved before you actually can
purchase the tool.

841
00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:20,600
So tell us a little bit about
accessibility and higher Ed and

842
00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:23,240
how that all works.
Yeah, so actually I wanna go

843
00:44:23,240 --> 00:44:26,560
back to AI real quick.
This is where I'm excited about,

844
00:44:26,560 --> 00:44:28,960
by the way, for AI, it's
accessibility.

845
00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:32,080
It's actually designing for all
people.

846
00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:34,800
So when we talk about how we try
to design, learning experiences

847
00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:38,520
for everybody, if we have
essentially A sidekick to be

848
00:44:38,520 --> 00:44:41,360
able to help us out to do this,
this can be done.

849
00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:44,200
And we've seen this if a couple
of different examples that are

850
00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:46,040
mind blowing.
I'm not sure if any of you have

851
00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:48,080
followed the updates would be my
eyes.

852
00:44:48,200 --> 00:44:50,520
Have any of you seen the updates
in that recently?

853
00:44:51,720 --> 00:44:54,960
Be My Eyes is an app that is
designed to be able to help

854
00:44:54,960 --> 00:44:57,720
those visual impairments, those
who are fully blind, all the way

855
00:44:57,720 --> 00:44:59,440
to a slight type of visual
impairment.

856
00:44:59,640 --> 00:45:01,880
And the way that the app works
is that think about it kind of

857
00:45:01,880 --> 00:45:05,080
like FaceTime is that you have a
volunteer on the other side from

858
00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:08,920
the Be My Eyes organization and
then you have the person with

859
00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:11,300
the visual impairments.
They're essentially walking

860
00:45:11,300 --> 00:45:13,980
around their house with holding
up their phone and the other

861
00:45:13,980 --> 00:45:16,420
person is able to actually go
into a system.

862
00:45:16,420 --> 00:45:19,380
So if they go into their fridge
and they pick up a carton of

863
00:45:19,380 --> 00:45:21,460
milk, they can just say like,
can you read this for me?

864
00:45:21,460 --> 00:45:24,020
Tell me the expiration date and
the other person on the phone

865
00:45:24,020 --> 00:45:26,400
could go in and say this.
Now of course it's kind of

866
00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:27,960
intrusive.
You don't want a random stranger

867
00:45:27,960 --> 00:45:30,680
in your house all the time.
So be my eyes was able to

868
00:45:30,680 --> 00:45:34,920
partner with Open AI to now have
the ability to use ChatGPT

869
00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:37,640
inside of the app.
So instead when you go into your

870
00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:40,800
fridge and yes, it can tell you
if you're scanning it in of is

871
00:45:40,800 --> 00:45:43,760
this expired or not.
It could do so, but if that is

872
00:45:43,760 --> 00:45:46,960
still good, then you can be able
to say, scan everything inside

873
00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:49,520
of my fridge and then tell me
what can I make for dinner

874
00:45:49,520 --> 00:45:51,680
tonight.
Create for me a recipe of what I

875
00:45:51,680 --> 00:45:57,720
currently have in stock.
That's like, oh, oh, we could OK

876
00:45:57,720 --> 00:46:00,520
was like, so now we're helping
all people because now thinking

877
00:46:00,520 --> 00:46:03,440
about it from an educational
perspective, we can help out so

878
00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:06,200
many students in so many
different ways, whether they

879
00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:10,040
wanted to go and explore
culinary or for fitness or for

880
00:46:10,040 --> 00:46:13,600
fashion or whatever it is like,
it's incredible about where this

881
00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:17,200
could potentially go.
So yes, there is this whole talk

882
00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:19,920
about how AI is not great and
then all these other different

883
00:46:19,920 --> 00:46:22,680
things about nature.
Don't get me wrong, but this is

884
00:46:22,680 --> 00:46:26,040
where I hope that.
We truly move the needle as far

885
00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:29,520
As for with using accessibility,
making that a priority, which is

886
00:46:29,520 --> 00:46:32,040
like a really difficult
conversation as we're, you know,

887
00:46:32,040 --> 00:46:36,200
we're talking about right now is
that it's always a welcoming and

888
00:46:36,200 --> 00:46:40,000
embracing conversation amongst
those usually been L&Z and

889
00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:41,920
instructional designers where
we're all like, yeah,

890
00:46:42,240 --> 00:46:44,440
absolutely.
And then you talk with other

891
00:46:44,440 --> 00:46:47,200
people outside of your space and
you're like, wait, why don't you

892
00:46:47,200 --> 00:46:50,170
feel that way?
Like you we we need to like if

893
00:46:50,170 --> 00:46:51,850
not.
Meeting with the resistance.

894
00:46:52,090 --> 00:46:54,090
Yeah.
And it then it's like, oh, but

895
00:46:54,170 --> 00:46:56,570
but then people can't enjoy
these same things as us.

896
00:46:56,570 --> 00:47:00,130
Like we we need to, you know.
So it's extremely tricky to be

897
00:47:00,130 --> 00:47:02,170
able to guide those
conversations and to get that

898
00:47:02,170 --> 00:47:03,570
going.
But as Heidi was just saying,

899
00:47:03,570 --> 00:47:06,090
absolutely, if it does not meet
certain types of compliance

900
00:47:06,090 --> 00:47:09,330
factors, then it's gone.
You're like, Nope, it's like we

901
00:47:09,370 --> 00:47:12,610
can't do this.
Or if you're going to be going

902
00:47:12,610 --> 00:47:14,810
through with something and
sometimes something will pop up

903
00:47:14,810 --> 00:47:17,330
that you've never encountered
before and you're like, OK.

904
00:47:17,770 --> 00:47:19,050
I didn't realize this was a
feature.

905
00:47:19,290 --> 00:47:21,770
How do I make sure that everyone
can access this at the same

906
00:47:21,770 --> 00:47:23,530
time?
So there's all these different

907
00:47:23,530 --> 00:47:25,890
types of things for you to be
able to go through and to work

908
00:47:25,890 --> 00:47:27,650
very closely.
I work extremely closely with

909
00:47:27,650 --> 00:47:31,490
the accessibility team, and I
have all the past universities

910
00:47:31,490 --> 00:47:34,530
and institutions of like tell me
more like, how can I improve

911
00:47:34,570 --> 00:47:36,290
upon this?
How can I make this better?

912
00:47:36,290 --> 00:47:38,890
How can I revise things?
Because always having a second

913
00:47:38,890 --> 00:47:41,250
set of eyes is extremely
helpful, especially for the

914
00:47:41,250 --> 00:47:44,050
people who know way more than
than you is.

915
00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:46,680
Fantastic.
Yeah, that's another good point

916
00:47:46,680 --> 00:47:49,240
about instructional design.
You don't have to know

917
00:47:49,240 --> 00:47:51,000
everything.
Yeah.

918
00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:53,360
And like, when you talk about
accessibility, I'm sure there's

919
00:47:53,360 --> 00:47:54,760
things that I know that Luke
doesn't know.

920
00:47:54,760 --> 00:47:57,320
And Heidi and Nadia, we could
all come together and probably

921
00:47:57,320 --> 00:47:58,720
know everything about
accessibility.

922
00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:00,160
But you don't have to know
everything.

923
00:48:00,240 --> 00:48:02,280
There's just an awareness to
this position.

924
00:48:02,520 --> 00:48:05,240
You're like the Jack Jane of all
trades.

925
00:48:05,240 --> 00:48:07,280
You know?
Different things are happening.

926
00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:11,180
Technology's changing.
You want to be informed so that

927
00:48:11,180 --> 00:48:12,660
that level of awareness is
important.

928
00:48:12,660 --> 00:48:15,180
I'm glad you mentioned that.
And I really like the fact that

929
00:48:15,820 --> 00:48:18,740
instructional design departments
work closely with, like the

930
00:48:18,740 --> 00:48:22,100
student disability services and
and to make sure that you're

931
00:48:22,100 --> 00:48:25,060
designing, learning experiences
and keeping, you know, certain

932
00:48:25,060 --> 00:48:26,700
things in mind.
There's lots of checklists that

933
00:48:26,700 --> 00:48:28,580
float around about accessibility
too.

934
00:48:29,340 --> 00:48:31,140
Yeah.
Absolutely, Denadia.

935
00:48:31,140 --> 00:48:32,860
Are you?
Back Nadia's.

936
00:48:33,140 --> 00:48:37,740
Back and she's clear.
You're back.

937
00:48:38,400 --> 00:48:40,000
I think the problem I figured
out.

938
00:48:40,600 --> 00:48:45,880
I figured it out and This is why
closing your tabs is super

939
00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:49,200
important.
Friends like close your tabs

940
00:48:49,200 --> 00:48:53,720
because I think I had the guest
tab and the audience tab open at

941
00:48:53,720 --> 00:48:58,920
the same time from earlier, like
just testing out and it was like

942
00:48:58,920 --> 00:49:02,160
trying to compete with each
other, you know and so I think

943
00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:07,580
that was the the big issue so.
That was my fault.

944
00:49:07,580 --> 00:49:10,420
Sorry. close your tabs,
everyone. close your tabs.

945
00:49:11,060 --> 00:49:13,260
Oh.
My something so simple,

946
00:49:13,540 --> 00:49:14,980
something so simple.
It happened.

947
00:49:16,620 --> 00:49:19,220
Well, we've we've been having a
wonderful conversation.

948
00:49:19,220 --> 00:49:21,580
I want to kind of start wrapping
things up here in the last 8

949
00:49:21,580 --> 00:49:24,580
minutes that we have together
because we, I know all of us

950
00:49:24,580 --> 00:49:27,660
could talk for five hours about
this stuff, but I'm going to bed

951
00:49:27,660 --> 00:49:34,520
early tonight, so.
The job market.

952
00:49:34,840 --> 00:49:38,160
This is something that I focus
on a lot in my LinkedIn post

953
00:49:38,160 --> 00:49:41,160
with my job postings.
But instructional design has

954
00:49:41,200 --> 00:49:45,120
taken off.
Three years ago pre COVID like

955
00:49:45,120 --> 00:49:49,280
finding a structural design.
Higher Ed corporate was very far

956
00:49:49,280 --> 00:49:52,960
and few between.
But now like I can do we can do

957
00:49:52,960 --> 00:49:55,960
job postings like twice a week I
do 8.

958
00:49:56,360 --> 00:49:58,600
Multiply that by the 100 and
some I've done.

959
00:49:58,600 --> 00:50:00,680
That's all the jobs that have
become available.

960
00:50:01,130 --> 00:50:05,010
So for people looking to get
into this industry and going

961
00:50:05,010 --> 00:50:07,970
through and all of these jobs
are available, how do they

962
00:50:07,970 --> 00:50:11,330
navigate this space, whether
that's an edtech, hire IT or

963
00:50:11,330 --> 00:50:15,010
corporate what, where do they
start and like what's the best

964
00:50:15,010 --> 00:50:17,250
advice you can give them for
finding a role in instructional

965
00:50:17,250 --> 00:50:21,650
design in your sector?
I'll go.

966
00:50:21,930 --> 00:50:23,810
Since I yeah, been in the
corner.

967
00:50:26,850 --> 00:50:29,930
Well, I think the biggest thing
because I've had to navigate

968
00:50:29,930 --> 00:50:34,970
this job market recently and I
think the biggest thing is is

969
00:50:34,970 --> 00:50:39,610
like kind of like I want to say
like the resume obviously gets

970
00:50:39,610 --> 00:50:42,610
you get your foot in the door,
but it doesn't help you to land

971
00:50:42,610 --> 00:50:46,290
the role.
And obviously what your, what

972
00:50:46,290 --> 00:50:49,570
your skills are like what and
how you can sell yourself really

973
00:50:49,570 --> 00:50:51,410
is what's going to land you the
role.

974
00:50:51,410 --> 00:50:55,010
And I think the biggest thing is
like ditching imposter syndrome

975
00:50:55,050 --> 00:50:57,730
and.
In order to do that, you really

976
00:50:57,730 --> 00:50:59,970
have to do.
I think that's the biggest thing

977
00:50:59,970 --> 00:51:04,010
I've learned just in working
with idle courses, Academy like

978
00:51:04,010 --> 00:51:09,330
action, doing like doing the
work, learning upskilling, like

979
00:51:09,330 --> 00:51:13,050
being involved in the space,
networking, learning from

980
00:51:13,050 --> 00:51:14,650
others.
That's really going to give you

981
00:51:14,650 --> 00:51:17,490
the confidence to go into an
interview and sell yourself in

982
00:51:17,490 --> 00:51:19,850
the space.
So I think the biggest thing is

983
00:51:19,850 --> 00:51:23,290
like ditching the apostation
syndrome and for transitioning

984
00:51:23,290 --> 00:51:25,420
teachers.
Stop viewing yourself as a

985
00:51:25,420 --> 00:51:27,260
former teacher.
Yes, you are.

986
00:51:27,460 --> 00:51:29,460
Yes, teaching teachers are
amazing.

987
00:51:29,900 --> 00:51:31,860
We love teachers.
I love teachers.

988
00:51:31,860 --> 00:51:33,780
I still support teachers.
OK?

989
00:51:34,060 --> 00:51:38,620
But you have to stop seeing
yourself as a transition teacher

990
00:51:38,620 --> 00:51:41,780
or a former teacher and see
yourself in that role so that

991
00:51:41,780 --> 00:51:43,340
you can sell yourself in that
role.

992
00:51:43,620 --> 00:51:45,620
No one.
If you don't see yourself there,

993
00:51:45,660 --> 00:51:48,300
you can't convince someone else
that you're supposed to be

994
00:51:48,300 --> 00:51:51,020
there.
So I think the biggest thing is

995
00:51:51,020 --> 00:51:53,640
just kind of like.
Especially with the interview,

996
00:51:53,680 --> 00:51:56,960
the interviewing piece, you you
have to be able to excel

997
00:51:56,960 --> 00:52:00,400
yourself and you're not going to
be able to do that unless you're

998
00:52:00,480 --> 00:52:04,040
actively within the field
learning and building that

999
00:52:04,040 --> 00:52:07,480
confidence with those skills.
So that's my piece of advice.

1000
00:52:07,480 --> 00:52:11,560
I think like the resume gets you
there or gets you in front of

1001
00:52:11,560 --> 00:52:13,520
someone, but it doesn't get you
the job.

1002
00:52:13,920 --> 00:52:16,040
So I think that's important to
keep in mind.

1003
00:52:18,800 --> 00:52:20,760
And foster syndrome never goes
away, by the way.

1004
00:52:21,530 --> 00:52:23,690
No it doesn't.
Throw that out there for all,

1005
00:52:23,770 --> 00:52:26,730
all people who are like it goes
away by the time you know it.

1006
00:52:27,090 --> 00:52:29,450
No it doesn't.
We, we, we still encounter it,

1007
00:52:29,490 --> 00:52:31,250
even feel on top of the world
sometimes.

1008
00:52:31,250 --> 00:52:32,530
You're like, what am I doing
here?

1009
00:52:32,570 --> 00:52:35,610
What what's happening right now?
And it's just And that's the

1010
00:52:35,610 --> 00:52:38,410
real thing.
To add to all those fabulous

1011
00:52:38,410 --> 00:52:41,570
points, what I'll say is a
couple of different pieces of

1012
00:52:41,570 --> 00:52:44,800
advice about things.
For one, you should absolutely,

1013
00:52:44,840 --> 00:52:48,000
positively be connecting with as
many folks as possible.

1014
00:52:48,040 --> 00:52:51,600
Learn as much as you can.
Absorb that information for

1015
00:52:51,600 --> 00:52:54,440
Masterminds.
I love masterminds, and if you

1016
00:52:54,440 --> 00:52:56,600
don't know what that is,
essentially you were creating a

1017
00:52:56,600 --> 00:52:59,840
group to help support one
another with their goals.

1018
00:52:59,840 --> 00:53:02,920
You check in every single week,
share what you worked on for

1019
00:53:02,920 --> 00:53:05,560
your progress.
You talk about out loud what

1020
00:53:05,560 --> 00:53:08,720
you're going to be working on
next week, share some tips, and

1021
00:53:08,720 --> 00:53:11,480
you just keep on repeating that
every single week until you hit

1022
00:53:11,480 --> 00:53:12,800
your goal.
I have used.

1023
00:53:13,000 --> 00:53:15,560
Reminds for everything.
They help me to stay on track.

1024
00:53:15,800 --> 00:53:18,280
That also helps me to follow my
plan to and to hold me

1025
00:53:18,280 --> 00:53:20,320
accountable.
Because if I tell people that,

1026
00:53:20,320 --> 00:53:23,080
hey, I'm interviewing for this
job, I'm going to report back to

1027
00:53:23,080 --> 00:53:25,560
you by next week, then that's
what you're going to be sharing.

1028
00:53:25,560 --> 00:53:27,800
They're going to be expecting to
hear more about what is it that

1029
00:53:27,800 --> 00:53:29,960
you've actually done.
And of course, inside of these

1030
00:53:29,960 --> 00:53:32,440
different forms of groups, you
can share what's working for you

1031
00:53:32,480 --> 00:53:35,400
and what's not working for you,
because not every single tip is

1032
00:53:35,400 --> 00:53:38,380
going to be working for people.
Highly recommend to keep on

1033
00:53:38,380 --> 00:53:41,260
building out your network by the
way, the more you can learn from

1034
00:53:41,260 --> 00:53:43,300
those from following them,
seeing their posts.

1035
00:53:43,300 --> 00:53:44,860
You have three amazing people
right here.

1036
00:53:44,860 --> 00:53:47,060
You should be following all of
them to read more about what

1037
00:53:47,060 --> 00:53:48,580
they are constantly posting and
sharing.

1038
00:53:48,620 --> 00:53:50,940
Yourself in that.
I'm fine, I'm OK.

1039
00:53:50,940 --> 00:53:53,380
You can find it whatever.
But the point is follow.

1040
00:53:53,380 --> 00:53:57,140
These amazing people have been
also heavily utilized Glassdoor

1041
00:53:57,300 --> 00:54:00,860
if you haven't done so already.
It's a type of a job website for

1042
00:54:00,860 --> 00:54:04,420
reviewing and posting anonymous
things as well talking about the

1043
00:54:04,420 --> 00:54:07,060
organization if there are
organizations.

1044
00:54:07,140 --> 00:54:09,940
That there was one in particular
I can think of in the Boston

1045
00:54:09,940 --> 00:54:12,620
area that was hiring 12
instructional designers all at

1046
00:54:12,620 --> 00:54:14,460
once.
And I was like, either they are

1047
00:54:14,460 --> 00:54:17,620
doing awesome or they're the
worst place humanly possible to

1048
00:54:17,620 --> 00:54:19,740
work.
And I found out from Glassdoor

1049
00:54:19,780 --> 00:54:23,220
that there was a new leadership
team that came in and everybody

1050
00:54:23,220 --> 00:54:25,420
quit.
I was like, yeah, you don't want

1051
00:54:25,420 --> 00:54:28,340
to work at that place right now.
Give that some time to kind of

1052
00:54:28,340 --> 00:54:31,420
settle.
In waving that red flag really

1053
00:54:31,900 --> 00:54:34,020
far wide.
No, we don't want to work there,

1054
00:54:34,020 --> 00:54:35,940
so make sure you're reading
those reviews.

1055
00:54:35,940 --> 00:54:38,580
Yes, take it with a grain of
salt, but there are some people

1056
00:54:38,580 --> 00:54:41,140
who are not going to be happy
and leaving those reviews,

1057
00:54:41,140 --> 00:54:43,860
understandably so.
But for the most part, they do

1058
00:54:43,860 --> 00:54:46,700
shed some light on the
interviewing process, talking

1059
00:54:46,700 --> 00:54:49,260
about the culture, talking about
leadership that benefits

1060
00:54:49,260 --> 00:54:52,660
everything of a sort like that
and just try to be able to learn

1061
00:54:52,660 --> 00:54:53,940
from there.
It's it's definitely going to

1062
00:54:53,940 --> 00:54:56,510
help you out.
Great advice.

1063
00:54:56,550 --> 00:54:58,590
Absolutely.
Heidi, how do you feel

1064
00:54:58,950 --> 00:55:01,950
navigating this space?
Yeah, I think.

1065
00:55:02,030 --> 00:55:04,390
I think one of the important
things is like everything in

1066
00:55:04,390 --> 00:55:06,470
moderation, right?
And I think that that's kind of

1067
00:55:06,470 --> 00:55:08,350
what Luke and Nadia were getting
at, right?

1068
00:55:08,350 --> 00:55:11,950
Like study a little bit of the
foundational theory, practice

1069
00:55:11,950 --> 00:55:16,030
what you can meet with people.
But like, all of those things

1070
00:55:16,030 --> 00:55:18,990
need to kind of be combined.
And you don't want to go too far

1071
00:55:19,230 --> 00:55:21,830
down the rabbit hole into any
one of those things, right?

1072
00:55:21,830 --> 00:55:27,390
Like, I remember seeing my
friend Sarah posting about don't

1073
00:55:27,390 --> 00:55:31,190
have a million coffee chats.
Like at some point you're having

1074
00:55:31,190 --> 00:55:33,030
way too many virtual coffee
chats.

1075
00:55:33,230 --> 00:55:35,990
You're not doing anything
productive that's going to help

1076
00:55:35,990 --> 00:55:38,950
you in an interview, right?
Like everything kind of has to

1077
00:55:38,950 --> 00:55:41,350
have a balance and you kind of
have to make a plan for

1078
00:55:41,350 --> 00:55:44,950
yourself, right?
And really be self aware of like

1079
00:55:44,950 --> 00:55:49,190
where do I need to upskill what
you know, look up common

1080
00:55:49,190 --> 00:55:51,990
instructional design interview
questions, What are the

1081
00:55:51,990 --> 00:55:54,430
questions you can't answer and
what are you going to do about

1082
00:55:54,430 --> 00:55:58,180
that, right?
And also know that like you can

1083
00:55:58,180 --> 00:56:01,860
absolutely do all the things for
free.

1084
00:56:01,860 --> 00:56:05,220
I know that everybody on this
call has something that we offer

1085
00:56:05,460 --> 00:56:08,380
of value, right?
And like there's nothing wrong

1086
00:56:08,380 --> 00:56:12,540
with how you know, paying to
upskill or paying to be involved

1087
00:56:12,540 --> 00:56:15,100
in a certain program.
But like, know that you also

1088
00:56:15,100 --> 00:56:18,300
don't have to.
And know that if you do, like

1089
00:56:18,300 --> 00:56:20,860
you're making an investment and
you need to be like really

1090
00:56:20,860 --> 00:56:24,130
conscious of you know, who
you're working with and who

1091
00:56:24,130 --> 00:56:28,530
you're collaborating with and
just really kind of be be be OK

1092
00:56:28,530 --> 00:56:30,410
with being picky about that,
right?

1093
00:56:30,690 --> 00:56:32,890
And really know what your goal
is.

1094
00:56:32,890 --> 00:56:36,170
Because every different
professional development service

1095
00:56:36,170 --> 00:56:39,530
has a different purpose too.
So really, figure out what you

1096
00:56:39,530 --> 00:56:44,050
need to upskill in and then go
ahead and invest in yourself or

1097
00:56:44,050 --> 00:56:46,840
plan accordingly.
Yeah, I feel like once you find

1098
00:56:46,840 --> 00:56:49,400
your niche, that's when you
start the investing of like

1099
00:56:49,800 --> 00:56:51,560
paying people for their
expertise.

1100
00:56:51,760 --> 00:56:54,760
But this level of awareness
where you're like at the 30,000

1101
00:56:54,760 --> 00:56:57,960
foot view, you don't need to pay
for certain things because then

1102
00:56:57,960 --> 00:57:00,000
you're again, you're just piece
mealing stuff together and

1103
00:57:00,000 --> 00:57:02,960
you're like oh like the next
shiny thing, the next shiny

1104
00:57:02,960 --> 00:57:05,440
Academy or thing that's
happening.

1105
00:57:05,680 --> 00:57:08,760
But once you 0 in, that's when
you should really start

1106
00:57:08,760 --> 00:57:11,960
investing it in these these
different opportunities for

1107
00:57:11,960 --> 00:57:13,920
sure.
That's why I tell people I'm

1108
00:57:13,920 --> 00:57:16,800
like they they say, do you do
coaching, Do you do this?

1109
00:57:16,800 --> 00:57:19,440
I'm like, well, have you figured
out where you want to be yet?

1110
00:57:19,840 --> 00:57:21,480
And they're like, no, I don't
know.

1111
00:57:21,480 --> 00:57:24,320
And I'm like, well, you need to
go check out these resources 1st

1112
00:57:24,600 --> 00:57:27,080
and then come back to me when
you have more of like a focus

1113
00:57:27,080 --> 00:57:29,400
area, because otherwise we're
just going to be all over the

1114
00:57:29,400 --> 00:57:30,240
place.
You're going to be wasting

1115
00:57:30,240 --> 00:57:31,240
money.
And I don't want to do that.

1116
00:57:31,240 --> 00:57:35,600
I want you to meet your goals.
So yeah, yeah.

1117
00:57:35,600 --> 00:57:38,000
But they just take your money
right away from that and then

1118
00:57:38,000 --> 00:57:39,910
that's a red flag.
Yep.

1119
00:57:40,110 --> 00:57:44,430
So absolutely got to be some.
Checking process in there to

1120
00:57:44,430 --> 00:57:46,390
make sure it's right for you, so
yeah.

1121
00:57:47,150 --> 00:57:50,150
Well, this is good segue into
the final question I want to ask

1122
00:57:50,150 --> 00:57:54,070
all of you is what are some of
your favorite resources that you

1123
00:57:54,070 --> 00:57:56,350
can share with people who want
to be aspiring instructional

1124
00:57:56,350 --> 00:58:00,190
designers?
Please plug all your stuff that

1125
00:58:00,190 --> 00:58:03,270
you have created, because I know
and we all know we're all

1126
00:58:03,270 --> 00:58:06,660
content creators.
That it has taken a lot of hours

1127
00:58:06,660 --> 00:58:08,380
and a lot of times.
So please plug your stuff and

1128
00:58:08,380 --> 00:58:10,180
just tell us what are your
favorite things?

1129
00:58:10,180 --> 00:58:12,060
Where can people go?
Where can they find you?

1130
00:58:12,700 --> 00:58:16,900
Tell us all the things.
Who wants to go first?

1131
00:58:16,900 --> 00:58:21,380
Who wants to gloat first?
OK, whatever.

1132
00:58:21,380 --> 00:58:23,740
I'll be the bad guy.
Hi, I'm Luke.

1133
00:58:23,860 --> 00:58:25,980
I make content on the Internet
about instructional design.

1134
00:58:26,420 --> 00:58:29,420
No.
So the best piece of content I

1135
00:58:29,420 --> 00:58:31,780
can probably give for you who
are transitioning right now into

1136
00:58:31,780 --> 00:58:35,180
instructional designers.
Is there is a blog post that I

1137
00:58:35,180 --> 00:58:37,500
wrote that's called So You Want
to Become an Instructional

1138
00:58:37,500 --> 00:58:39,540
Designer.
I'm turning it into an e-book.

1139
00:58:39,540 --> 00:58:41,580
It's like 110 pages long.
Literally.

1140
00:58:41,580 --> 00:58:44,460
Everything humanly possible I
can share with you is inside of

1141
00:58:44,460 --> 00:58:47,340
that one thing.
Feel free bookmark and you can

1142
00:58:47,340 --> 00:58:50,700
go and find that thing and then
just keep on going down that

1143
00:58:50,700 --> 00:58:52,460
road.
If you want to actually read a

1144
00:58:52,460 --> 00:58:55,100
little bit more of a different
type of insights about things I

1145
00:58:55,100 --> 00:58:58,060
wish I knew about beforehand, I
have a book on Amazon called So

1146
00:58:58,060 --> 00:58:59,620
You Want to Become an
Instructional Designer.

1147
00:58:59,860 --> 00:59:02,620
You can find that as well.
But really if you just Google

1148
00:59:02,860 --> 00:59:05,100
doctor.
Luke Hobson, my blog, podcast,

1149
00:59:05,100 --> 00:59:07,700
YouTube channel, all that stuff
will pop up and if you really

1150
00:59:07,700 --> 00:59:10,420
want to dive in deep, I do have
a seven week long course that

1151
00:59:10,420 --> 00:59:12,820
does do that over at
Instructional Design Institute.

1152
00:59:13,140 --> 00:59:16,140
So that's one thing you want.
To just wrapped up, you just

1153
00:59:16,140 --> 00:59:18,820
wrapped up a cohort, right?
Another cohort, one, Another

1154
00:59:18,820 --> 00:59:20,660
cohort start, another one
starting up in December.

1155
00:59:21,450 --> 00:59:24,210
OK, Yep, just keeps on.
We're going to put everything in

1156
00:59:24,210 --> 00:59:26,090
the show notes that you just
mentioned.

1157
00:59:26,090 --> 00:59:29,090
It'll all be there for people to
go out and find.

1158
00:59:29,170 --> 00:59:32,010
I appreciate the reminder, but
yeah, but that's those are all

1159
00:59:32,010 --> 00:59:33,610
my stuff, my stuffs and my
things.

1160
00:59:36,650 --> 00:59:41,970
Nadia, what about you?
Can you hear me?

1161
00:59:42,690 --> 00:59:46,170
Yes.
You are clear and we can hear

1162
00:59:46,170 --> 00:59:47,650
you.
It's wonderful.

1163
00:59:48,730 --> 00:59:53,450
So, yeah, I would say.
If you're kind of just starting

1164
00:59:53,450 --> 00:59:57,810
and want to like build a
portfolio or I know that Tim

1165
00:59:57,810 --> 01:00:01,650
Slade had some awesome resources
for building out portfolio.

1166
01:00:01,650 --> 01:00:06,610
I I did mine on Google site
super easy and that was awesome

1167
01:00:06,610 --> 01:00:09,090
for me.
I would also say I spring our

1168
01:00:09,090 --> 01:00:15,010
sponsor for this episode or this
live event is they have great,

1169
01:00:15,210 --> 01:00:18,130
awesome free resources that you
can.

1170
01:00:18,540 --> 01:00:23,820
Download and utilize in your
journey into ID and then as well

1171
01:00:23,820 --> 01:00:25,860
as LinkedIn.
I would say LinkedIn was like

1172
01:00:25,860 --> 01:00:31,320
the biggest like piece that kind
of helped me to network and

1173
01:00:31,320 --> 01:00:35,520
learn and I've been able to kind
of chat and learn from others

1174
01:00:35,520 --> 01:00:38,800
within the field which has been
an awesome awesome experience

1175
01:00:38,800 --> 01:00:41,200
thus far.
So I would say just tapping into

1176
01:00:41,200 --> 01:00:45,040
your networking at LinkedIn and
seeing what resources are

1177
01:00:45,040 --> 01:00:48,000
provided there.
Lastly, I will also say the Ed

1178
01:00:48,000 --> 01:00:51,040
Up Ed Tech podcast in which I'm
a Co host of.

1179
01:00:51,440 --> 01:00:56,720
We are always sharing new
insights, so keep keep joining

1180
01:00:56,720 --> 01:01:00,690
us for all of these awesome
conversations and episodes.

1181
01:01:01,530 --> 01:01:04,010
And you can find me on LinkedIn
at Denadia Johnson.

1182
01:01:05,050 --> 01:01:07,490
Yeah.
Good ones.

1183
01:01:07,530 --> 01:01:15,010
I like all of them, Heidi.
Oh sure, that's all your stuff.

1184
01:01:15,370 --> 01:01:18,450
The best way to find all my
stuff is just to connect with me

1185
01:01:18,450 --> 01:01:21,770
on LinkedIn, but I'll break it
down a little further and say

1186
01:01:22,210 --> 01:01:26,410
the website getusefulstuff.com
is a place where you can find

1187
01:01:26,410 --> 01:01:29,090
useful resources for L&D
professionals.

1188
01:01:29,560 --> 01:01:31,760
At the time of this recording
though, if you're listening

1189
01:01:31,760 --> 01:01:35,680
live, it's down temporarily.
It'll be up shortly so don't

1190
01:01:35,680 --> 01:01:39,480
panic if you go through it right
now and it's down, but coming

1191
01:01:39,480 --> 01:01:43,640
soon within the next couple of
months are going to be hopefully

1192
01:01:43,640 --> 01:01:47,640
some self-paced courses and
cohort based courses for L&D

1193
01:01:47,640 --> 01:01:51,400
professionals to upskill and
things like podcasting and ID

1194
01:01:51,400 --> 01:01:54,240
fundamentals, scenario based
learning, things like that.

1195
01:01:55,160 --> 01:01:57,400
I also have a podcast called the
Building Learning and

1196
01:01:57,400 --> 01:02:02,480
Organizational Culture or Block
Podcast and then the learning

1197
01:02:02,480 --> 01:02:06,480
consultancy I've just joined at
realgoodlearning.com.

1198
01:02:06,800 --> 01:02:11,240
In the next couple of weeks is
there's going to be a podcast

1199
01:02:11,240 --> 01:02:15,520
launch and the Good Learning
podcast is like case studies.

1200
01:02:15,910 --> 01:02:18,070
Of people creating good
learning, so it's gonna be a

1201
01:02:18,310 --> 01:02:21,310
really, really good one for.
I'm excited.

1202
01:02:21,750 --> 01:02:22,790
I'm.
Excited too.

1203
01:02:22,790 --> 01:02:25,390
I'm very excited, yeah.
Put it on the list.

1204
01:02:25,390 --> 01:02:28,390
Put it on the list.
Awesome.

1205
01:02:28,390 --> 01:02:31,590
I love everybody in this space,
in this community and I can't

1206
01:02:31,670 --> 01:02:33,390
thank the three of you enough
for taking the time.

1207
01:02:33,390 --> 01:02:36,130
We did go a little bit over.
But I know the audience

1208
01:02:36,130 --> 01:02:38,090
appreciates you.
I appreciate you and all the

1209
01:02:38,090 --> 01:02:41,170
expertise and all the things
that you share for this

1210
01:02:41,170 --> 01:02:43,010
community.
So thank you so much for coming

1211
01:02:43,010 --> 01:02:45,490
on and sharing all your
knowledge and all your tips and

1212
01:02:45,490 --> 01:02:48,010
your tricks.
It's it's been a lot of fun.

1213
01:02:48,170 --> 01:02:49,290
A lot of.
I love this.

1214
01:02:49,290 --> 01:02:50,410
Thank you for having.
Us.

1215
01:02:50,410 --> 01:02:51,730
Yes.
Thanks for hosting.

1216
01:02:52,370 --> 01:02:55,210
Absolutely anytime.
You know, I love to host some

1217
01:02:55,290 --> 01:02:56,570
some fun parties.